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Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:26:25 +0200
Cc: "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <28B2C847-F999-429B-A94A-D35F4E562077@opera.com>
To: 中文HTML5同樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>
专名号在大马算是没人用,大陆那边应该也少用。可能 
港台教科书有用,电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用率。

Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对的。 
试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline, 重新教 
育有多难,而且大家都会继续滥用。

当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用 
mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗?

同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?

On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote:

> 說明一下、、這算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回 
> 應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不 
> 合標準的標籤」[2] 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標 
> 準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在這個郵件群組得到共識,但是 
> 從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段所以 
> 我至少希望這個議題在這個時候被拿出來討論一下。 
> 我目前的看法是
>
> - 加一個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能
> - 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是一種濫用
> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了
> - Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜 
> 體標船名,總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實 
> 在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。
>
>
>
> 總之這個議題處理的狀況都會CC到這個列表啦,如果 
> 這個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解這個HTML5編輯Ian  
> Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的 
> 討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但是 
> <b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問 
> 題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以這次就 
> 順便提了一提啦!
>
> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到這邊來。
>
> 有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的Apple 
> 的Maciej[5])
>
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features
> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak
>
> 此致
>
> Kenny
>
> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:
>
>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
>>
>>          Summary: Make <u> conforming.
>>          Product: HTML WG
>>          Version: unspecified
>>         Platform: PC
>>              URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-
>>                   conforming-features
>>       OS/Version: All
>>           Status: NEW
>>         Severity: major
>>         Priority: P3
>>        Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)
>>       AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch
>>       ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org
>>        QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
>>               CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,
>>                   public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,
>>                   public-html-ig-zh@w3.org
>>
>>
>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was  
>> no consensus
>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej  
>> think we can
>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to  
>> catch the
>> editor's attention.
>>
>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly  
>> mentioned in
>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this  
>> mark is to
>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break  
>> words,
>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although  
>> it is no
>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some  
>> textbooks in
>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because  
>> the purpose
>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is  
>> similar to code
>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use  
>> <mark> for this
>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax
>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span  
>> class="pn">
>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case  
>> because proper
>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and  
>> vertical text
>> is not yet popular on the Web.
>>
>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a  
>> hyperlink
>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML  
>> user agents
>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the  
>> user might not
>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles.
>>
>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307
>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark
>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg
>>
>> -- 
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>>
>

Regards,

Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌

Web Evangelist
/ Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /

Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
+ 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
Received on Thursday, 30 September 2010 11:02:38 UTC

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