W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-a11y@w3.org > May 2011

Re: Minutes HTML A11Y TF 12 May 2011

From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 06:31:33 -0500
Message-ID: <BANLkTikBrN+6phr=HcHpwn+_C6umSeBQkg@mail.gmail.com>
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, Judy Brewer <jbrewer@w3.org>
On 5/12/11, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Steve, Judy and all,
>
> It seems like there was some discussion regarding stabilizing
> proposals at today's meeting.
Hi all,

>> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change
>> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and
>> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG*
>
> Is
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
> a stabilized proposal?

Last change was 08:49, 13 May 2011 Sfaulkne
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/notitle&action=history

The notitle proposal still seems to be changing after the TF
resolution. So what is meant by a "stabilized" proposal?

Thanks.

Best Regards,
Laura

> Last change was 12:42, 12 May 2011
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc&action=history
>
> Thanks.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Laura
>
> On 5/12/11, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> wrote:
>> Minutes of the 12 May 2011 HTML Accessibility Task Force meeting are
>> posted to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html and copied
>> below.
>>
>>
>>   HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
>>
>>
>>     12 May 2011
>>
>> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-irc>
>>
>>
>>     Attendees
>>
>> Present
>>     Michael_Cooper, JF, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith,
>>     paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Eric, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
>> Regrets
>> Chair
>>     Janina_Sajka
>> Scribe
>>     MichaelC
>>
>>
>>     Contents
>>
>>     * Topics <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
>>          1. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
>>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
>>          2. Text Subteam Issues
>>             http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
>>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
>>          3. Next week
>>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
>>     * Summary of Action Items
>>       <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011
>>
>> <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
>>
>> <janina> agenda: this
>>
>> <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
>>
>> <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/EnTitle
>>
>> <mranon> zackim, P7 is me
>>
>> <scribe> scribe: MichaelC
>>
>> <scribe> chair: Janina_Sajka
>>
>> jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up
>>
>>
>>       Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
>>
>> == media ==
>>
>> discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element
>>
>> js: request for stable URI for <missed>
>>
>> also need to work on navigational concerns
>>
>> == canvas ==
>>
>> <nobody present>
>>
>> == bug triage ==
>>
>> mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week
>>
>> gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many
>>
>> gave rationales for each
>>
>> no major highlights
>>
>> == ARIA mapping ==
>>
>> cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call
>>
>> lots of work to do
>>
>> have identified starter points
>>
>> js: that meets just before this call?
>>
>> cs: yes, for now
>>
>> js: need help?
>>
>> cs: yes
>>
>> splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map
>>
>> js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June
>>
>>
>>       Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
>>
>> <judy> Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting:
>> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
>>
>> jb: 7-8 issues on the table
>>
>> <lists too fast to scribe>
>>
>> jf: re meta name = generator
>>
>> <JF>
>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name=generator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
>>
>> leif has done a lot of work
>>
>> creating a change proposal in wiki
>>
>> still work to do
>>
>> <Stevef> rich will try to join later
>>
>> jb: expect work in near future?
>>
>> jf: yes, but more to do in wiki
>>
>> jb: role=presentation
>>
>> being dealt with by bugs
>>
>> cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to
>> role=presentation
>>
>> concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation
>>
>> author doesn't know what they're doing in this case
>>
>> talked with david singer
>>
>> <JF> +q
>>
>> since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning
>> / accessibility evaluation issue
>>
>> not a validator error
>>
>> jb: need to check support for this?
>> ... over to Steve for title
>>
>> Leif making a case
>>
>> sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on
>>
>> jb: ready for discussion within tf?
>>
>> sf: yes
>>
>> jb: figcaption
>>
>> would like to take off urgent track
>>
>> recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do
>>
>> cs: taking off urgent track is good
>>
>> jb: longdesc
>>
>> were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura
>>
>> kept getting additional suggestions
>>
>> want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment
>>
>> jb: poster alt
>>
>> jf: being discussed in media subteam
>>
>> alternative text for paused video
>>
>> same problem from different angle
>>
>> active discussion, strong divide in opinion
>>
>> there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt
>>
>> not pursuing further at moment
>>
>> jb: table summary
>>
>> gregory working on, but out this week
>>
>> probably taking off urgent path
>>
>> jb: location of alt guidance
>>
>> clear disagreement with HTML WG decision
>>
>> probably will address on non-urgent basis
>>
>> jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc
>>
>> but first, bug support issue
>>
>> cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements
>>
>> but after discussion we view as not a big deal
>>
>> do we need to push more?
>>
>> jf: if <img src=foo alt=important role=presentation> which wins?
>>
>> cs: role=presentation wins
>>
>> but it's author error
>>
>> from a validation perspective it's allowed
>>
>> might be a warning
>>
>> note validator doesn't know if alt is important
>>
>> changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error
>>
>> topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not
>> restricting alt
>>
>> js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art
>>
>> cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work...
>>
>> can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense
>>
>> can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes
>>
>> so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite
>> complex
>>
>> therefore moves into warning territory
>>
>> jf: agree sounds like warning
>>
>> but important to capture the point
>>
>> js: proposal to file bug
>>
>> cs: having warning gives a hook
>>
>> jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss
>>
>> still needs to come back into text sub-team
>>
>> not consensus there yet, needs further discussion
>>
>> cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of
>> perception of flip-flopping
>>
>> jb: need further conversation on that
>>
>> group yesterday considered new info
>>
>> Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif
>>
>> jb: moving on to title
>>
>> cs: ok with either there
>>
>> <LeifHSilli> Just want to note the question I consider most important:
>> Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt
>> equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says
>> that aria-labelledby wins. See
>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0290
>>
>> sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence
>>
>> <something about input devices>
>>
>> asked vendors, got inconclusive responses
>>
>> looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title
>>
>> but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible caption
>>
>> or at least available to all, not to some people some times
>>
>> <JF> +1 to Steve
>>
>> no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device
>> independent manner
>>
>> filed a bug a year ago
>>
>> was rejected
>>
>> <re needing mouse to display title>
>>
>> jb: questions?
>>
>> objections to supporting proposal?
>>
>> <janina> +1
>>
>> <mranon> +1
>>
>> <judy> please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal
>>
>> <janina> +1
>>
>> <mranon> +1
>>
>> <judy> +1
>>
>> <JF> +1 to steves proposal
>>
>> rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal?
>>
>> sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs
>>
>> <paulc> Where is Steve's proposal? Link please.
>>
>> <janina> Referenced in the agenda for today ...
>>
>> main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt
>>
>> rs: that's just webkit, right?
>>
>> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
>>
>> sf: don't want to promote that approach
>>
>> rs: clarification?
>>
>> sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way
>>
>> rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover
>>
>> advisory text
>>
>> <JF> +q to this topic
>>
>> <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title
>> as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
>>
>> mc: ARIA allows title as last resort
>>
>> sf: yes for accessible name
>>
>> but shouldn't impact graphical rendering
>>
>> jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors
>>
>> lots of screen readers by default ignore title
>>
>> because of redundancy with alt in legacy content
>>
>> because back in the day @alt wasn't rendered to tooltip so authors put
>> in both places
>>
>> jb: any change in support for Steve's proposal after this discussion?
>>
>> rs: support
>>
>> my understanding is Leif's is to have @title rendered when images turned
>> off
>>
>> that's not something I support
>>
>> important to separate functionality of alt and title
>>
>> jb: proposing change?
>>
>> <JF> akc JF
>>
>> rs: supporting Steve's
>>
>> <Zakim> JF, you wanted to this topic
>>
>> <richardschwerdtfe> I support Steve Faulkner's proposal
>>
>> <richardschwerdtfe> on title
>>
>> pc: note Leif not here
>>
>> js: was on Monday, other discussions
>>
>> pc: proposal has a number of "new information"
>>
>> is there a companion rationale to reopen decision?
>>
>> <judy> Leif, do you at this point object to Steve's proposal on title?
>>
>> jb: embedded, think Sam's reviewed
>>
>> sf: rationale is that there is new info
>>
>> jb: pinging Leif, no response yet, but did discuss Monday that we'd look
>> for consensus but not necessarily unanimity
>>
>> at moment think we have that
>>
>> suggest we declare TF consensus
>>
>> js: think we have that now
>>
>> were specific that the question would be called in this call
>>
>> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
>>
>> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change
>> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and
>> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG*
>>
>> jb: moving back to longdesc
>>
>> pc: trying to understand goal at the moment
>>
>> current proposal being constantly updated
>>
>> <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
>> updated on may 12
>>
>> <judy> ===== longdesc =====
>>
>> <judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
>>
>> change proposals not necessarily expected to be static
>>
>> it's before the WG now
>>
>> <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-030
>>
>> chairs track these things at above link
>>
>> jb: we've requested Laura to stabilize this
>>
>> she asked for consensus, got additional suggestions, so has continued to
>> change
>>
>> so put on agenda here to measure support from task force
>>
>> who supports Laura's proposal as is right now?
>>
>> <JF> +q
>>
>> no responses, is the issue that it's still changing?
>>
>> jf: conditionally I support, but need to finish fine-tuning
>>
>> want to see final version
>>
>> same
>>
>> <JF> +1 to Rich's comments
>>
>> think we're arriving at something that adds value to all users
>>
>> jb: sounds like we can't call question on TF support until it stabilizes
>>
>> to PC, what is process expectation?
>>
>> pc: Sam & I will be at AC meeting next week, but both on travel so
>> jetlag...
>>
>> hope to respond within 3-4 days to reopen requests, but difficult next
>> week
>>
>> will enter our queue
>>
>> jb: that's just regarding making decision whether or not to reopen?
>>
>> pc: yes
>>
>> though we have already started discussing this
>>
>> and have meeting next Tuesday morning CEST
>>
>> <JF> bye all
>>
>> <MikeSmith> yep
>>
>> <MikeSmith> wi
>>
>> <MikeSmith> will be
>>
>>
>>       Next week
>>
>> Mike to chair, Steve to scribe
>>
>> trackbot, end meeting
>>
>>
>>     Summary of Action Items
>>
>> [End of minutes]
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
>> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
>> version 1.136 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
>> $Date: 2011/05/12 16:05:32 $
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Michael Cooper
>> Web Accessibility Specialist
>> World Wide Web Consortium, Web Accessibility Initiative
>> E-mail cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>
>> Information Page <http://www.w3.org/People/cooper/>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Laura L. Carlson
>


-- 
Laura L. Carlson
Received on Friday, 13 May 2011 11:32:02 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 27 April 2012 04:42:38 GMT