W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-a11y@w3.org > May 2011

Re: Minutes HTML A11Y TF 12 May 2011

From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 15:44:12 -0500
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=4GH51ndCD1dKpmNVDOiUp=7xXaA@mail.gmail.com>
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Hi Steve, Judy and all,

It seems like there was some discussion regarding stabilizing
proposals at today's meeting.

> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change
> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and
> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG*

Is
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
a stabilized proposal?

Last change was 12:42, 12 May 2011
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc&action=history

Thanks.

Best Regards,

Laura

On 5/12/11, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> wrote:
> Minutes of the 12 May 2011 HTML Accessibility Task Force meeting are
> posted to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html and copied
> below.
>
>
>   HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
>
>
>     12 May 2011
>
> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-irc>
>
>
>     Attendees
>
> Present
>     Michael_Cooper, JF, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith,
>     paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Eric, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
> Regrets
> Chair
>     Janina_Sajka
> Scribe
>     MichaelC
>
>
>     Contents
>
>     * Topics <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
>          1. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
>          2. Text Subteam Issues
>             http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
>          3. Next week
>             <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
>     * Summary of Action Items
>       <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011
>
> <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
>
> <janina> agenda: this
>
> <janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
>
> <janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/EnTitle
>
> <mranon> zackim, P7 is me
>
> <scribe> scribe: MichaelC
>
> <scribe> chair: Janina_Sajka
>
> jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up
>
>
>       Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
>
> == media ==
>
> discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element
>
> js: request for stable URI for <missed>
>
> also need to work on navigational concerns
>
> == canvas ==
>
> <nobody present>
>
> == bug triage ==
>
> mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week
>
> gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many
>
> gave rationales for each
>
> no major highlights
>
> == ARIA mapping ==
>
> cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call
>
> lots of work to do
>
> have identified starter points
>
> js: that meets just before this call?
>
> cs: yes, for now
>
> js: need help?
>
> cs: yes
>
> splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map
>
> js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June
>
>
>       Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
>
> <judy> Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting:
> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
>
> jb: 7-8 issues on the table
>
> <lists too fast to scribe>
>
> jf: re meta name = generator
>
> <JF>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name=generator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
>
> leif has done a lot of work
>
> creating a change proposal in wiki
>
> still work to do
>
> <Stevef> rich will try to join later
>
> jb: expect work in near future?
>
> jf: yes, but more to do in wiki
>
> jb: role=presentation
>
> being dealt with by bugs
>
> cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to
> role=presentation
>
> concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation
>
> author doesn't know what they're doing in this case
>
> talked with david singer
>
> <JF> +q
>
> since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning
> / accessibility evaluation issue
>
> not a validator error
>
> jb: need to check support for this?
> ... over to Steve for title
>
> Leif making a case
>
> sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on
>
> jb: ready for discussion within tf?
>
> sf: yes
>
> jb: figcaption
>
> would like to take off urgent track
>
> recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do
>
> cs: taking off urgent track is good
>
> jb: longdesc
>
> were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura
>
> kept getting additional suggestions
>
> want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment
>
> jb: poster alt
>
> jf: being discussed in media subteam
>
> alternative text for paused video
>
> same problem from different angle
>
> active discussion, strong divide in opinion
>
> there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt
>
> not pursuing further at moment
>
> jb: table summary
>
> gregory working on, but out this week
>
> probably taking off urgent path
>
> jb: location of alt guidance
>
> clear disagreement with HTML WG decision
>
> probably will address on non-urgent basis
>
> jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc
>
> but first, bug support issue
>
> cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements
>
> but after discussion we view as not a big deal
>
> do we need to push more?
>
> jf: if <img src=foo alt=important role=presentation> which wins?
>
> cs: role=presentation wins
>
> but it's author error
>
> from a validation perspective it's allowed
>
> might be a warning
>
> note validator doesn't know if alt is important
>
> changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error
>
> topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not
> restricting alt
>
> js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art
>
> cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work...
>
> can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense
>
> can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes
>
> so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite
> complex
>
> therefore moves into warning territory
>
> jf: agree sounds like warning
>
> but important to capture the point
>
> js: proposal to file bug
>
> cs: having warning gives a hook
>
> jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss
>
> still needs to come back into text sub-team
>
> not consensus there yet, needs further discussion
>
> cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of
> perception of flip-flopping
>
> jb: need further conversation on that
>
> group yesterday considered new info
>
> Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif
>
> jb: moving on to title
>
> cs: ok with either there
>
> <LeifHSilli> Just want to note the question I consider most important:
> Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt
> equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says
> that aria-labelledby wins. See
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0290
>
> sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence
>
> <something about input devices>
>
> asked vendors, got inconclusive responses
>
> looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title
>
> but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible caption
>
> or at least available to all, not to some people some times
>
> <JF> +1 to Steve
>
> no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device
> independent manner
>
> filed a bug a year ago
>
> was rejected
>
> <re needing mouse to display title>
>
> jb: questions?
>
> objections to supporting proposal?
>
> <janina> +1
>
> <mranon> +1
>
> <judy> please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal
>
> <janina> +1
>
> <mranon> +1
>
> <judy> +1
>
> <JF> +1 to steves proposal
>
> rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal?
>
> sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs
>
> <paulc> Where is Steve's proposal? Link please.
>
> <janina> Referenced in the agenda for today ...
>
> main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt
>
> rs: that's just webkit, right?
>
> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
>
> sf: don't want to promote that approach
>
> rs: clarification?
>
> sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way
>
> rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover
>
> advisory text
>
> <JF> +q to this topic
>
> <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title
> as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
>
> mc: ARIA allows title as last resort
>
> sf: yes for accessible name
>
> but shouldn't impact graphical rendering
>
> jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors
>
> lots of screen readers by default ignore title
>
> because of redundancy with alt in legacy content
>
> because back in the day @alt wasn't rendered to tooltip so authors put
> in both places
>
> jb: any change in support for Steve's proposal after this discussion?
>
> rs: support
>
> my understanding is Leif's is to have @title rendered when images turned off
>
> that's not something I support
>
> important to separate functionality of alt and title
>
> jb: proposing change?
>
> <JF> akc JF
>
> rs: supporting Steve's
>
> <Zakim> JF, you wanted to this topic
>
> <richardschwerdtfe> I support Steve Faulkner's proposal
>
> <richardschwerdtfe> on title
>
> pc: note Leif not here
>
> js: was on Monday, other discussions
>
> pc: proposal has a number of "new information"
>
> is there a companion rationale to reopen decision?
>
> <judy> Leif, do you at this point object to Steve's proposal on title?
>
> jb: embedded, think Sam's reviewed
>
> sf: rationale is that there is new info
>
> jb: pinging Leif, no response yet, but did discuss Monday that we'd look
> for consensus but not necessarily unanimity
>
> at moment think we have that
>
> suggest we declare TF consensus
>
> js: think we have that now
>
> were specific that the question would be called in this call
>
> <paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
>
> *RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change
> proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and
> recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG*
>
> jb: moving back to longdesc
>
> pc: trying to understand goal at the moment
>
> current proposal being constantly updated
>
> <paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
> updated on may 12
>
> <judy> ===== longdesc =====
>
> <judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
>
> change proposals not necessarily expected to be static
>
> it's before the WG now
>
> <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-030
>
> chairs track these things at above link
>
> jb: we've requested Laura to stabilize this
>
> she asked for consensus, got additional suggestions, so has continued to
> change
>
> so put on agenda here to measure support from task force
>
> who supports Laura's proposal as is right now?
>
> <JF> +q
>
> no responses, is the issue that it's still changing?
>
> jf: conditionally I support, but need to finish fine-tuning
>
> want to see final version
>
> same
>
> <JF> +1 to Rich's comments
>
> think we're arriving at something that adds value to all users
>
> jb: sounds like we can't call question on TF support until it stabilizes
>
> to PC, what is process expectation?
>
> pc: Sam & I will be at AC meeting next week, but both on travel so jetlag...
>
> hope to respond within 3-4 days to reopen requests, but difficult next week
>
> will enter our queue
>
> jb: that's just regarding making decision whether or not to reopen?
>
> pc: yes
>
> though we have already started discussing this
>
> and have meeting next Tuesday morning CEST
>
> <JF> bye all
>
> <MikeSmith> yep
>
> <MikeSmith> wi
>
> <MikeSmith> will be
>
>
>       Next week
>
> Mike to chair, Steve to scribe
>
> trackbot, end meeting
>
>
>     Summary of Action Items
>
> [End of minutes]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
> version 1.136 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
> $Date: 2011/05/12 16:05:32 $
>
>
> --
>
> Michael Cooper
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> World Wide Web Consortium, Web Accessibility Initiative
> E-mail cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>
> Information Page <http://www.w3.org/People/cooper/>
>
>


-- 
Laura L. Carlson
Received on Thursday, 12 May 2011 20:44:39 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 27 April 2012 04:42:38 GMT