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Minutes of HTML-A11Y Media Subteam on 19 January at 22:00Z for 90 Minutes

From: Sean Hayes <Sean.Hayes@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:32:54 +0000
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <8DEFC0D8B72E054E97DC307774FE4B9133135FFB@DB3EX14MBXC313.europe.corp.microsoft.com>
Available at : http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-html-a11y-minutes.html


And as text:
Attendees
Present 
 Janina, Kenny_Johar, Judy, Eric_Carlson, Sean_Hayes 
Regrets 
 Chair 
 Janina_Sajka 
Scribe 
 Sean

[22:05] == Sean [qw3birc@128.30.52.28] has joined #html-a11y
[22:06] <Sean> zakim, passcode
[22:06] <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode', Sean
[22:06] <Zakim> +Judy
[22:07] == kenny_j [kenny_j@121.214.178.213] has joined #html-a11y
[22:08] <Sean> ok. whats the passcode then
[22:08] <Zakim> +??P12
[22:08] <kenny_j> its 2119 
[22:09] <janina> zakim, ?p12 is Matsutomo
[22:09] <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '?p12'
[22:09] <janina> agenda?
[22:09]  * Zakim sees 9 items remaining on the agenda:
[22:09]  * Zakim 1. Identify Scribe [from janina]
[22:09]  * Zakim 2. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
[22:09]  * Zakim 3. Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below [from janina]
[22:09] <Sean> zakim, what's the conference code? 
[22:09]  * Zakim 4. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
[22:09]  * Zakim 5. Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html [from janina]
[22:09]  * Zakim 6. Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html [from janina]
[22:10]  * Zakim 7. Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux [from janina]
[22:10]  * Zakim 8. Other Business? [from janina]
[22:10]  * Zakim 9. be done [from janina]
[22:10] <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Sean
[22:10] <janina> Shawn, Code is 2119#
[22:10] <Sean> not working here
[22:11] <Zakim> +Sean_Hayes
[22:13] <janina> zakim, next item
[22:13] <Zakim> agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina]
[22:15] <Sean> Issue 94 draft change proposal for html-issue-142 video (poster alt)
[22:16] <Sean> Scribe: Sean
[22:18] <Sean> reviewed actions. no reported progress
[22:18] <janina> scribe: Shawn
[22:19] <janina> zakim, next item
[22:19] <Zakim> agendum 3. "Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below" taken up [from janina]
[22:19] <Zakim> -Judy
[22:19] <janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10843
[22:19] <janina> - Support user control over the visual presentation of caption text.
[22:19] <janina> (RESOLVED NEEDSINFO) - John Foliot
[22:19] <Zakim> +Judy
[22:21] <janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10941
[22:21] <janina> - Media elements need control-independent "pause" for presenting lengthy
[22:21] <janina> descriptions/captions (RESOLVED REMIND) - Masatomo Kobayashi
[22:21] <Sean> sean sent email to silvia
[22:23] <Sean> discussed techniques, no inerface for author to interface to client side tts
[22:23] <Sean> but other than that the information is there for UA
[22:24] <Sean> Janina: there is a motion to taking up client side TTS in HTCG
[22:24] <Sean> as part of audio work
[22:25] <janina> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/14-hcg-minutes.html
[22:27] <Sean> mkobayash: did you use normal pause?
[22:27] <Sean> sean: yes
[22:28] <Sean> mkobayash: user cannot press pause button
[22:28] <Sean> the technique uses the pause API triggered by caption
[22:30] <Sean> group: conclusion is that the informationis there
[22:30] <Sean> keeping open until we hear form silvia before closing the bug
[22:30] <janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207
[22:30] <janina> - Make track element additions technology neutral (RESOLVED FIXED) - Sean
[22:30] <janina> Hayes
[22:31] <Sean> still section 10.3.2 close
[22:32] <Sean> if Ian was to delete this section then we could close the bug
[22:32] <Sean> have put a note to that effect
[22:33] <Sean> there is no need for the W3C to keep track
[22:33] <janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11395
[22:33] <janina> - Use media queries to select appropriate <track> elements (RESOLVED
[22:33] <janina> WONTFIX) - Frank Olivier
[22:33] <Sean> I checked with frank earlier today
[22:34] <Sean> eric to check with DSinger
[22:34] <janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11593
[22:34] <janina> - The <track> @kind attribute should include the all of the identified
[22:34] <janina> accessibility content types (NEW) - John Foliot
[22:35] <janina> zakim, who's on the phone?
[22:35] <Zakim> On the phone I see Janina, Kenny_Johar, Eric_Carlson, ??P12, Sean_Hayes, Judy
[22:35] <Sean> ACTION: Eric_Carlson, get D Singer to adopt bug 11395
[22:35]  * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[22:35] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric_Carlson,
[22:35]  * RRSAgent records action 1
[22:36] <Sean> ACTION: Eric_Carlson get D Singer to adopt bug 11395
[22:36]  * RRSAgent records action 2
[22:36]  * trackbot noticed an ACTION. Trying to create it.
[22:36] <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric_Carlson
[22:38] <Sean> in the run up to LC we were thinking about new track types so John filed a bug on it
[22:39] <Sean> however Silvias analysis is that they were all covered
[22:39] <Sean> Janina: we can close if that is indeed the case
[22:39] <Sean> check with silvia
[22:40] <Sean> janina: done with first pass
[22:40] <Sean> janina: will need to return to some as a second pass
[22:40] <Sean> janina: confirm in email, ask john to manage 
[22:41] <janina> zakim, agenda?
[22:42] <Zakim> 4. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
[22:42] <Zakim> 5. Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html [from janina]
[22:42] <Zakim> 6. Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html [from janina]
[22:42] <Zakim> 7. Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux [from janina]
[22:42] <Zakim> 8. Other Business? [from janina]
[22:42] <Zakim> 9. be done [from janina]
[22:42] <janina> zakim, close item 3
[22:42] <Zakim> agendum 3, Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below, closed
[22:42] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
[22:42] <Zakim> 4. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
[22:42] <janina> zakim, open item 6
[22:42] <Zakim> agendum 6. "Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html" taken up [from janina]
[22:43] <Sean> janina: is there anyone that thinks that alt text needs to distinguish poster form media
[22:43] <Sean> s/form/from/
[22:44] <Sean> janina: seems that the poster behaviour functions as a static image and thats what the alt is abouy
[22:44] <Sean> eric: john is not here
[22:44] <Sean> and his opinion is we need something as a separate discription
[22:45] <Sean> judy: whats the point of discussing now?
[22:45] <Sean> janina: bringing out the positions
[22:46] <Sean> eric: if you are saying that we need a separate description of the 1st frame from the video, i dont agree
[22:46] <Sean> janina: we dont need a description of the elemnet
[22:46] <Sean> this is what we traditionallly have done is describe images
[22:47] <Sean> so if poster is an image then alt and longdesc apply to it
[22:47] <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
[22:47] <Zakim> 3. Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below [from janina]
[22:47] <Sean> or 1st frame if its functioning as an image
[22:48] <Sean> no alt description for the element
[22:48] <Sean> eric: I meant a description of the resource
[22:48] <Sean> eric; agree author needs alt or longdesc of the media content
[22:48] <Sean> eric: but not describe the 1st frame separately
[22:49] <Sean> eric: if it needs to be destinct then it should be described as part of the media resource
[22:49] <Sean> eric; seems to me that a description of a video describes what you see in the first frame or poster
[22:49] <Sean> janina: how does this differ from a static image
[22:50] <Sean> eric: video is different tform a static image
[22:50] <Sean> janina: sighted user knows its a video how?
[22:50] <Sean> eric: if default controls arent shown then it looks the same as an image
[22:51] <Sean> if the controls are there then you see them overlaid
[22:51] <Sean> janian: browser + AT can recognize the controls
[22:51] <Sean> eric; yes
[22:51] <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
[22:51] <Sean> janina: so see no need to describe that
[22:51] <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
[22:52] <Sean> prgrammatically ccan determine image from video, so whatever is being shown is all that needs describing - which is a static image
[22:53] <Sean> functionally no different than describing an image
[22:54] <Sean> eric: johns point is that we need a new child element of the video containing the poster and a description of the poster
[22:54] <Sean> eric: agree with Janina, use existing attribute on the element itself
[22:54] <Sean> janina: true that alt as an attribute has some issues
[22:54] <Sean> for i18n
[22:55] <Sean> but thats a separate discussion on enhancing alt
[22:56] <Sean> eric: what about autoplay?
[22:56] <Sean> janina: can keep that from happening
[22:57] <Sean> eric: even if it starts playing on any user action. what does it mean if the description only cvers the static part and the AT gets to it after playback has started
[22:57] <Sean> janina: we should try to avoid that
[22:58] <Sean> eric: other controls on the page e.g. an element, can start the video playing
[22:58] <Sean> so thinking that doesnt make sense to just describe the static representation, should include description of the media and the first frame (if significant)
[22:59] <Sean> eric: we cant prevent it, but may be an edge case
[22:59] <Sean> image on another part of the screen which starts the video on hover
[23:00] <Sean> any script can trigger media element
[23:00] <Sean> janina: yes - a problem
[23:01] <Sean> wcag requirement is that you can disable that
[23:01] <Sean> or stop it
[23:01] <Sean> eric: hard to do
[23:01] <Sean> iOS has this behaviour
[23:01] <Sean> needs an explicit user gesture to start video
[23:01] <Sean> must be in a user initiated event handler
[23:02] <Sean> but hard to do on desktop, big change
[23:02] <Sean> would break content
[23:03] <Sean> Judy: I'm worried we might not have anything exlict on this in wcag
[23:03] <Sean> possible we have something adequately generic
[23:03] <Sean> and a technique would take care of it
[23:03] <Sean> eric: best we can do is an authoring guideline
[23:03] <Sean> janina: thinking we cant prevent it
[23:04] <Sean> judy: except if we have the ability to feed in UA guidelines
[23:04] <Sean> eric: my point is that its possible for a UA to prevent autoplay, not honor page authors trequest
[23:05] <Sean> but its difficult prevent any script
[23:05] <Sean> when is it OK, thats the issue
[23:05] <Sean> janina: its a common behaviour, and people like it; but for some its an accessibility issue
[23:06] <Sean> eric: but whats to prevent a script running>
[23:06] <Sean> kenny: difficult for engineers, but could filter out based on events
[23:06] <Sean> eric: wont prevent it
[23:06] <Sean> they are attached to media loading
[23:07] <Sean> very difficult to determine automatically when its ok and when its not
[23:07] <Sean> on iOS script has to be triggered from user gesture
[23:07] <Sean> but its hard to implement; and breaks a lot of content
[23:08] <Sean> lots of bug reports on iphone because of this
[23:08] <Sean> causes authors to write new scriptsa for the phone
[23:08] <Sean> wont get buy in on such a change
[23:09] <Sean> janina: maybe its a new user requirment
[23:09] <Sean> judy: wcag doesnt say anything directly relevant to preventing autoplay
[23:10] <Sean> the relevant place is UAAG, and has a clause on separate selection form activation
[23:10] <Sean> as a user option
[23:10] <Sean> partial relevance
[23:10] <Sean> and another one about event handlers
[23:11] <Sean> maybe needs to revisited if we have feedback on autoplay
[23:11] <Sean> kenny: Q: is there a possibility of dealing with it in browser to give screen reader user a means to stop the video on request
[23:12] <Sean> judy: both probably, but we dont have both covered
[23:12] <Sean> eric; technically possible
[23:12] <Sean> but custom controls wuld have to have a case to deal with it
[23:13] <Sean> on page with default controls tho could work
[23:13] <Sean> janina: strayed form the poster issue? but identified an important issue
[23:14] <Sean> need to articulate it better
[23:14] <Sean> janina: that media does not start automatically unless user asks for it
[23:14] <Sean> not bringing focus on another element etc. setting for specific users
[23:15] <Sean> eric: this is a problem that cant be solved cleanly
[23:15] <Sean> we will prevent people from writing custom controls
[23:16] <Sean> kenny: so if browsers give a keystrok to stop, it should be possible now that video is native
[23:16] <Sean> may be a more robust solution
[23:16] <Sean> and its only one new gesture to learn
[23:16] <Sean> eric; could work.
[23:17] <Sean> sean: but if the video starts then the poster is no longer visible
[23:17] <Sean> eric: so the description needs ot be of the whole resource
[23:18] <Sean> so its always relevant
[23:18] <Sean> janina: ok, hadnt thought of that
[23:18] <Sean> kenny: alt text for the video must describe the video, but not frame by frame
[23:19] <Sean> janina: description for poster would need to dissapear
[23:19] <Sean> would make sense if the video is paused on different frame
[23:19] <Sean> wouldnt
[23:20] <Sean> janina: more fruitful conversation tan expected
[23:20] <Sean> summary: 1 mechanism or multiple mechanisms
[23:20] <Sean> point of disagreement
[23:21] <Sean> point 2: jf and janina have discussed offline, he's cncernd that the poster may be irrlevant to what the movie is
[23:22] <Sean> if thats the case then its the case for the sighted user too
[23:23] <Sean> expecting there is some thing which tells you what the video is, separate from any poster image
[23:23] <Sean> like a title
[23:23] <Sean> judy: a name is the most consistent thing
[23:23] <Sean> eric: majority of web content just has the first frame of the file
[23:23] <Sean> so not that helpful to sighted user either
[23:24] <Sean> janina: should try to solve bad authoring
[23:24] <Sean> should not
[23:24] <Sean> but john may have a different perspective
[23:24] <Sean> have we missed anything?
[23:24] <Sean> [silence]
[23:25] <janina> zakim, agenda?
[23:25] <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
[23:25] <Zakim> 4. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
[23:25] <Zakim> 5. Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html [from janina]
[23:25] <Zakim> 6. Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html [from janina]
[23:25] <Zakim> 7. Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux [from janina]
[23:25] <Zakim> 8. Other Business? [from janina]
[23:25] <Zakim> 9. be done [from janina]
[23:26] <Sean> CfP for media API went out. deadline feb 21
[23:27] <Zakim> -Judy
[23:27] <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
[23:27] <Zakim> -Kenny_Johar
[23:27] <Zakim> -??P12
[23:27] <janina> zakim, bye
[23:27] <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Janina, Kenny_Johar, Judy, Eric_Carlson, Sean_Hayes
Received on Wednesday, 19 January 2011 23:33:46 UTC

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