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Belated regrets, September 27 2010 public-fx telcon

From: Anthony Grasso <Anthony.Grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:31:29 +0000
To: "public-fx@w3.org" <public-fx@w3.org>
Message-ID: <923A4276C1903646BE5299CA8462B0A0041282@EXM01-WVP.cisra.canon.com.au>
Hi everyone,

Sorry I missed the call. I lost my voice over the weekend which isn't very helpful for a telcon.

Should be fine to make the next call.

Cheers,
Anthony

P.S. Still looking for my voice.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-fx-request@w3.org [mailto:public-fx-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Erik Dahlstrom
> Sent: Tuesday, 28 September 2010 7:03 AM
> To: public-fx@w3.org
> Subject: Minutes September 27 2010 public-fx telcon
>
> As html:
>
>
>    http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
>
>
> As text:
>
>
>     [1]W3C
>
>        [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>                                 - DRAFT -
>
>                     CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
>
> 27 Sep 2010
>
>     [2]Agenda
>
>        [2]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html
>
>     See also: [3]IRC log
>
>        [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-irc
>
> Attendees
>
>     Present
>            ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aabb,
>            dbaron, shepazu
>
>     Regrets
>     Chair
>            SV_MEETING_CHAIR
>
>     Scribe
>            smfr
>
> Contents
>
>       * [4]Topics
>           1. [5]SVG/CSS unitless values
>           2. [6]CSS border and background-color on the <svg> element
>           3. [7]'pointer-events' and (event) transparency
>       * [8]Summary of Action Items
>       _________________________________________________________
>
>     <ed> trackbot, start telcon
>
>     <trackbot> Date: 27 September 2010
>
>     <ed> Zakim: room for 8?
>
>     Zakim: Apple is smfr and dino
>
>     i confused it
>
>     <dbaron> I'm getting "this passcode is not valid"
>
>     <dbaron> then again, I think Zakim doesn't like the tone dialing
>     from either my cellphone or office phone anymore
>
>     <plinss> sorry, not available, having to step away from the phone
>     due to personal issues going on...
>
>     <scribe> scribenick: smfr
>
>     <ed> Agenda:
>     [9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.htm
>     l
>
>        [9]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html
>
>     smfr: we support the element proposal, in general
>     ... we don't like the fact that the element has to be visible,
>     forcing overflow:hidden hacks
>
>     ed: opera is also interested
>
>     dbaron: you really want a url reference
>
>     <dbaron> ... for some things
>
>     smfr: we see this as a way to get away from our -webkit-box-reflect
>     property
>
>     <dbaron> but element() can be useful for things like reflectiions of
>     content in the document
>
>     smfr: tabatkins posted the message (url above), but I haven't seen a
>     spec
>
>     doug: what is the next step? what spec would this go into?
>
>     smfr: one issue is that it has a CSS property and some API
>     ... i don't really like the API
>
>     doug: maybe use a selector rather than an ID?
>
>     dino: what's the use case for the API?
>
>     smfr: i think we need roc on a call to delve into this
>
>     doug: should someone take an action to work on the spec for this,
>     and gather feedback
>
>     dbaron: i can ask roc (he's away right now)
>
>     <scribe> ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
>     [10]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]
>
>     <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dbaron
>
>     <scribe> ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded
>     in [11]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]
>
>     <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Baron to get roc onto the next call
>     [on David Singer - due 2010-10-04].
>
>     arg
>
>     next topic
>
>     SVG/CSS unitless values
>
>     [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.ht
>     ml
>
>       [12]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.html
>
> SVG/CSS unitless values
>
>     doug: css is going to defining more in user units (like svg uses px,
>     but they are really just user units)
>     ... not necessarily counter-intuitive to user if the values are
>     unitless
>
>     dbaron: there are existing ares in css where parsing disambiguation
>     requires the ability to distinguish lengths and numbers
>     ... that's a big motivation in css to not change this
>     ... gecko requires units according to css; it only allows unitless
>     numbers for longhand properties in quirks mode
>
>     <ed> a good summary in this thread by chris lilley:
>     [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.ht
>     ml
>
>       [13]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.html
>
>     dbaron: the other motivation in css is that in many areas pixel
>     units are frowned upon
>     ... so making them the default would encourage bad practice
>
>     plinss: css wg has been talking about dropping the requirements for
>     units this back in 1998
>
>     doug: when is it the wrong thing to do? browsers now do
>     scaling/magnify etc
>     ... are the old assumptions still valid?
>
>     plinss: i don't see any reason why they don't hold
>     ... css-wg has even been talking about what pixel units are
>
>     ed: esp with css transforms etc.
>
>     doug: pixel is no longer what css intended
>     ... less to do with pixels on a device, but it has more general
>     applicability than before
>
>     plinss: we're trying to make it a normal length unit, since it has
>     less association with device pixels than in the past
>
>     doug: it should be divorced from the device pixel (esp with
>     transforms), but that makes it more realistic
>
>     plinss: but then px has no more significance than inch etc
>
>     doug: lots of people think in px
>
>     [doug drops out]
>
>     dino: we can't make a decision here: css-wg owns the decision
>
>     ed: still need to get feedback from public-fx to css-wg
>
> CSS border and background-color on the <svg> element
>
>     <ed>
>     [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.ht
>     ml
>
>       [14]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.html
>
>     <ed> the svg wg discussed it at the f2f,minutes here:
>     [15]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04
>
>       [15] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04
>
>     doug: svg-wg looked into it, discussed at the F2F
>     ... border adds geometry, so svg-wg thought it was not applicable
>     ... allowing background to apply to root svg should may be a special
>     case
>
>     <dbaron>
>     [16]http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTY
>
> PE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%20width%3A%20100p
> x%3B%20he
>
> ight%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%3B%20border%3A%2
> 0medium%
>
> 20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBo
> x%3D%22
>
> 0%200%20100%20100%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%2
> 0cy%3D%22
>
> 50%22%20r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2F
> svg%3E
>
>       [16]
> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-
> viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%
> 20width%3A%20100px%3B%20height%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A
> %20yellow%3B%20border%3A%20medium%20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A
> %0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBox%3D%220%200%20100%20100
> %22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%20cy%3D%2250%22%20
> r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E
>
>     dbaron: boundary between the formatting models should be at the...
>
>     ?
>
>     dbaron: border could change how much space you have available, but
>     so do other things
>
>     doug: that's not true now: rectangle around the SVG would not add to
>     the size of the SVG
>
>     dbaron: the case here is svg in some other content
>
>     <dbaron> (I thought)
>
>     doug: we have to define it for all the cases, including standalone
>     svg
>     ... no problem with border and background on inline svg
>
>     dbaron: an inline svg to the CSS model is a replaced element
>
>     <dbaron> s/at the .../at the content box/
>
>     <dbaron> [17]http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg
>
>       [17] http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg
>
>     doug: most important is that they are defined, not necessarily how
>     they are defined
>     ... other people felt that other non-root svg elements should not
>     have these properties apply
>     ... in svg content, if you want to highlight something, you may want
>     to change the background or make an outline
>
>     you currently have do this through script by DOM manipulation
>
>     it would be a lot nicer by applying css properties
>
>     ed: you could some of that by CSS hover and more SVG content e.g
>     another shape
>
>     dbaron: I think you can have the SVG content in the tree the whole
>     time, and change the fill
>
>     doug: but then you're cluttering the DOM
>     ... we see how easy this in with CSS in HTML; it's much harder in
>     SVG
>     ... would like a grand unification of SVG and CSS
>
>     smfr: that's a larger topic than the one on the agenda, but could be
>     useful
>
>     doug: i'd be fine with the svg being a special case, and defining it
>     as has been proposed
>
>     ed: is that for the SVG integration spec, or something in this
>     group?
>
>     doug: if things overlap with other specs, then they go into the SVG
>     Integration Spec
>     ... maybe the SVG Integration Spec should be a product of public-fx
>     ... SVG Integration Spec intends to fill the gaps between specs
>
>     ed: does CSS define how borders are applied to replaced elements
>     like the SVG root element?
>
>     doug: the implementations are fairly consistent, but the behavior
>     (for reference content) is not the one most people expect
>     ... inline SVG behavior is fine
>     ... opened an issue for SVG2 to make it easier to make autoscaling
>     content
>     ... rather than width/height 100%, you could say that the document
>     uses autoscaling
>
>     dougt to bring up in 2 weeks
>
>     ed: is doug going to put something in the integration spec
>
>     doug: css folks should email public-fx
>
>     <scribe> ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to
>     the SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in
>     [18]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]
>
>     <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Summarize the options for CSS
>     applying to the SVG root before the next telecon [on Doug Schepers -
>     due 2010-10-04].
>
> 'pointer-events' and (event) transparency
>
>     [19]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item05
>
>       [19] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item05
>
>     ed: some differences between implementations in how pointer-events:
>     auto behaves
>     ... conclusion from SVG F2F: if you have inline SVG, clicks in
>     transparent areas go through to the underlying content as the
>     default behavior
>     ... most implementations do this
>     ... Firefox was the notable exception
>
>     dbaron: we're treating the root svg element like a replaced element
>
>     <ed> Example:
>     [20]http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
>
>       [20] http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
>
>     doug: most authors would expect events to go through to the html
>     ... it should go into the integration spec
>
>     dbaron: is the intent that SVG behaves differently that the SVG root
>     element is different?
>
>     doug: yes
>
>     ed: is pointer-events in HTML part of any spec?
>
>     what-wg discussion is here:
>     [21]http://www.mail-
> archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg22699.htm
>     l
>
>       [21] http://www.mail-
> archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg22699.html
>
>     doug: i don't think it belongs in the SVG Integration spec. it
>     belongs somewhere else
>     ... i'm interested in speccing this out
>
>     <scribe> ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in
>     [22]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]
>
>     <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Draw up a pointer-events spec [on
>     Doug Schepers - due 2010-10-04].
>
>     ed: anything else for today?
>
>     [no response]
>
>     dino drew up this:
>     [23]http://webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html
>
>       [23] http://webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html
>
>     adjourned
>
>     ed: do you take care of posting the minutes?
>
>     <ed> smfr: sure
>
>     thanks
>
>     <ed> trackbot, end telcon
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
>     [NEW] ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
>     [24]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]
>     [NEW] ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
>     [25]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]
>     [NEW] ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in
>     [26]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]
>     [NEW] ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to the
>     SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in
>     [27]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]
>
>     [End of minutes]
>       _________________________________________________________
>
>
>      Minutes formatted by David Booth's [28]scribe.perl version 1.135
>      ([29]CVS log)
>      $Date: 2010/09/27 20:57:11 $
>       _________________________________________________________
>
>       [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>       [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
>
> Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
>     [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.] This is scribe.perl
> Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at
> [30]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
> /scribe/
>
>       [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
>
> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
> FAILED: s/at the .../at the content box/
> Succeeded: s/more CSS/more SVG content e.g another shape/
> Succeeded: s/exect/expect/
> Found ScribeNick: smfr
> Inferring Scribes: smfr
> Default Present: ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aa bb,
> dbaron, shepazu
> Present: ed +1.858.655.aaaa plinss smfr dino +1.919.824.aabb dbaron she
> pazu
> Agenda: [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/00
> 89.html
>
>       [31]
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html
>
> WARNING: No meeting chair found!
> You should specify the meeting chair like this:
> <dbooth> Chair: dbooth
>
> Found Date: 27 Sep 2010
> Guessing minutes URL: [32]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
> People with action items: baron david dbaron doug
>
>       [32] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
>
> WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
> You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.
>
>
>     End of [33]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
>
>       [33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>
>
> --
> Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software Co-Chair, W3C
> SVG Working Group Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed

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