- From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:02:44 +0200
- To: "public-fx@w3.org" <public-fx@w3.org>
As html:
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
As text:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
27 Sep 2010
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-irc
Attendees
Present
ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aabb,
dbaron, shepazu
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
smfr
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]SVG/CSS unitless values
2. [6]CSS border and background-color on the <svg> element
3. [7]'pointer-events' and (event) transparency
* [8]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<ed> trackbot, start telcon
<trackbot> Date: 27 September 2010
<ed> Zakim: room for 8?
Zakim: Apple is smfr and dino
i confused it
<dbaron> I'm getting "this passcode is not valid"
<dbaron> then again, I think Zakim doesn't like the tone dialing
from either my cellphone or office phone anymore
<plinss> sorry, not available, having to step away from the phone
due to personal issues going on...
<scribe> scribenick: smfr
<ed> Agenda:
[9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.htm
l
[9]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html
smfr: we support the element proposal, in general
... we don't like the fact that the element has to be visible,
forcing overflow:hidden hacks
ed: opera is also interested
dbaron: you really want a url reference
<dbaron> ... for some things
smfr: we see this as a way to get away from our -webkit-box-reflect
property
<dbaron> but element() can be useful for things like reflectiions of
content in the document
smfr: tabatkins posted the message (url above), but I haven't seen a
spec
doug: what is the next step? what spec would this go into?
smfr: one issue is that it has a CSS property and some API
... i don't really like the API
doug: maybe use a selector rather than an ID?
dino: what's the use case for the API?
smfr: i think we need roc on a call to delve into this
doug: should someone take an action to work on the spec for this,
and gather feedback
dbaron: i can ask roc (he's away right now)
<scribe> ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dbaron
<scribe> ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded
in [11]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Baron to get roc onto the next call
[on David Singer - due 2010-10-04].
arg
next topic
SVG/CSS unitless values
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.ht
ml
[12]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.html
SVG/CSS unitless values
doug: css is going to defining more in user units (like svg uses px,
but they are really just user units)
... not necessarily counter-intuitive to user if the values are
unitless
dbaron: there are existing ares in css where parsing disambiguation
requires the ability to distinguish lengths and numbers
... that's a big motivation in css to not change this
... gecko requires units according to css; it only allows unitless
numbers for longhand properties in quirks mode
<ed> a good summary in this thread by chris lilley:
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.ht
ml
[13]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.html
dbaron: the other motivation in css is that in many areas pixel
units are frowned upon
... so making them the default would encourage bad practice
plinss: css wg has been talking about dropping the requirements for
units this back in 1998
doug: when is it the wrong thing to do? browsers now do
scaling/magnify etc
... are the old assumptions still valid?
plinss: i don't see any reason why they don't hold
... css-wg has even been talking about what pixel units are
ed: esp with css transforms etc.
doug: pixel is no longer what css intended
... less to do with pixels on a device, but it has more general
applicability than before
plinss: we're trying to make it a normal length unit, since it has
less association with device pixels than in the past
doug: it should be divorced from the device pixel (esp with
transforms), but that makes it more realistic
plinss: but then px has no more significance than inch etc
doug: lots of people think in px
[doug drops out]
dino: we can't make a decision here: css-wg owns the decision
ed: still need to get feedback from public-fx to css-wg
CSS border and background-color on the <svg> element
<ed>
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.ht
ml
[14]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.html
<ed> the svg wg discussed it at the f2f,minutes here:
[15]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04
[15] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04
doug: svg-wg looked into it, discussed at the F2F
... border adds geometry, so svg-wg thought it was not applicable
... allowing background to apply to root svg should may be a special
case
<dbaron>
[16]http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTY
PE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%20width%3A%20100px%3B%20he
ight%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%3B%20border%3A%20medium%
20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBox%3D%22
0%200%20100%20100%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%20cy%3D%22
50%22%20r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E
[16]
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%20width%3A%20100px%3B%20height%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%3B%20border%3A%20medium%20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBox%3D%220%200%20100%20100%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%20cy%3D%2250%22%20r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E
dbaron: boundary between the formatting models should be at the...
?
dbaron: border could change how much space you have available, but
so do other things
doug: that's not true now: rectangle around the SVG would not add to
the size of the SVG
dbaron: the case here is svg in some other content
<dbaron> (I thought)
doug: we have to define it for all the cases, including standalone
svg
... no problem with border and background on inline svg
dbaron: an inline svg to the CSS model is a replaced element
<dbaron> s/at the .../at the content box/
<dbaron> [17]http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg
[17] http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg
doug: most important is that they are defined, not necessarily how
they are defined
... other people felt that other non-root svg elements should not
have these properties apply
... in svg content, if you want to highlight something, you may want
to change the background or make an outline
you currently have do this through script by DOM manipulation
it would be a lot nicer by applying css properties
ed: you could some of that by CSS hover and more SVG content e.g
another shape
dbaron: I think you can have the SVG content in the tree the whole
time, and change the fill
doug: but then you're cluttering the DOM
... we see how easy this in with CSS in HTML; it's much harder in
SVG
... would like a grand unification of SVG and CSS
smfr: that's a larger topic than the one on the agenda, but could be
useful
doug: i'd be fine with the svg being a special case, and defining it
as has been proposed
ed: is that for the SVG integration spec, or something in this
group?
doug: if things overlap with other specs, then they go into the SVG
Integration Spec
... maybe the SVG Integration Spec should be a product of public-fx
... SVG Integration Spec intends to fill the gaps between specs
ed: does CSS define how borders are applied to replaced elements
like the SVG root element?
doug: the implementations are fairly consistent, but the behavior
(for reference content) is not the one most people expect
... inline SVG behavior is fine
... opened an issue for SVG2 to make it easier to make autoscaling
content
... rather than width/height 100%, you could say that the document
uses autoscaling
dougt to bring up in 2 weeks
ed: is doug going to put something in the integration spec
doug: css folks should email public-fx
<scribe> ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to
the SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Summarize the options for CSS
applying to the SVG root before the next telecon [on Doug Schepers -
due 2010-10-04].
'pointer-events' and (event) transparency
[19]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item05
[19] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item05
ed: some differences between implementations in how pointer-events:
auto behaves
... conclusion from SVG F2F: if you have inline SVG, clicks in
transparent areas go through to the underlying content as the
default behavior
... most implementations do this
... Firefox was the notable exception
dbaron: we're treating the root svg element like a replaced element
<ed> Example:
[20]http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
[20] http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml
doug: most authors would expect events to go through to the html
... it should go into the integration spec
dbaron: is the intent that SVG behaves differently that the SVG root
element is different?
doug: yes
ed: is pointer-events in HTML part of any spec?
what-wg discussion is here:
[21]http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg22699.htm
l
[21] http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg22699.html
doug: i don't think it belongs in the SVG Integration spec. it
belongs somewhere else
... i'm interested in speccing this out
<scribe> ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Draw up a pointer-events spec [on
Doug Schepers - due 2010-10-04].
ed: anything else for today?
[no response]
dino drew up this:
[23]http://webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html
[23] http://webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html
adjourned
ed: do you take care of posting the minutes?
<ed> smfr: sure
thanks
<ed> trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to the
SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [28]scribe.perl version 1.135
([29]CVS log)
$Date: 2010/09/27 20:57:11 $
_________________________________________________________
[28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
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Check for newer version at [30]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
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[30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
FAILED: s/at the .../at the content box/
Succeeded: s/more CSS/more SVG content e.g another shape/
Succeeded: s/exect/expect/
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Inferring Scribes: smfr
Default Present: ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aa
bb, dbaron, shepazu
Present: ed +1.858.655.aaaa plinss smfr dino +1.919.824.aabb dbaron she
pazu
Agenda: [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/00
89.html
[31]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html
WARNING: No meeting chair found!
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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth
Found Date: 27 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: [32]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
People with action items: baron david dbaron doug
[32] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.
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[33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
--
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 27 September 2010 21:03:25 UTC