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Minutes September 27 2010 public-fx telcon

From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:02:44 +0200
To: "public-fx@w3.org" <public-fx@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.vjpl2ug7geuyw5@mbp.local>
As html:


   http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html


As text:


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference

27 Sep 2010

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-irc

Attendees

    Present
           ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aabb,
           dbaron, shepazu

    Regrets
    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           smfr

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]SVG/CSS unitless values
          2. [6]CSS border and background-color on the <svg> element
          3. [7]'pointer-events' and (event) transparency
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <ed> trackbot, start telcon

    <trackbot> Date: 27 September 2010

    <ed> Zakim: room for 8?

    Zakim: Apple is smfr and dino

    i confused it

    <dbaron> I'm getting "this passcode is not valid"

    <dbaron> then again, I think Zakim doesn't like the tone dialing
    from either my cellphone or office phone anymore

    <plinss> sorry, not available, having to step away from the phone
    due to personal issues going on...

    <scribe> scribenick: smfr

    <ed> Agenda:
    [9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.htm
    l

       [9]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html

    smfr: we support the element proposal, in general
    ... we don't like the fact that the element has to be visible,
    forcing overflow:hidden hacks

    ed: opera is also interested

    dbaron: you really want a url reference

    <dbaron> ... for some things

    smfr: we see this as a way to get away from our -webkit-box-reflect
    property

    <dbaron> but element() can be useful for things like reflectiions of
    content in the document

    smfr: tabatkins posted the message (url above), but I haven't seen a
    spec

    doug: what is the next step? what spec would this go into?

    smfr: one issue is that it has a CSS property and some API
    ... i don't really like the API

    doug: maybe use a selector rather than an ID?

    dino: what's the use case for the API?

    smfr: i think we need roc on a call to delve into this

    doug: should someone take an action to work on the spec for this,
    and gather feedback

    dbaron: i can ask roc (he's away right now)

    <scribe> ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
    [10]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dbaron

    <scribe> ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded
    in [11]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Baron to get roc onto the next call
    [on David Singer - due 2010-10-04].

    arg

    next topic

    SVG/CSS unitless values

    [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.ht
    ml

      [12]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0005.html

SVG/CSS unitless values

    doug: css is going to defining more in user units (like svg uses px,
    but they are really just user units)
    ... not necessarily counter-intuitive to user if the values are
    unitless

    dbaron: there are existing ares in css where parsing disambiguation
    requires the ability to distinguish lengths and numbers
    ... that's a big motivation in css to not change this
    ... gecko requires units according to css; it only allows unitless
    numbers for longhand properties in quirks mode

    <ed> a good summary in this thread by chris lilley:
    [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.ht
    ml

      [13]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0011.html

    dbaron: the other motivation in css is that in many areas pixel
    units are frowned upon
    ... so making them the default would encourage bad practice

    plinss: css wg has been talking about dropping the requirements for
    units this back in 1998

    doug: when is it the wrong thing to do? browsers now do
    scaling/magnify etc
    ... are the old assumptions still valid?

    plinss: i don't see any reason why they don't hold
    ... css-wg has even been talking about what pixel units are

    ed: esp with css transforms etc.

    doug: pixel is no longer what css intended
    ... less to do with pixels on a device, but it has more general
    applicability than before

    plinss: we're trying to make it a normal length unit, since it has
    less association with device pixels than in the past

    doug: it should be divorced from the device pixel (esp with
    transforms), but that makes it more realistic

    plinss: but then px has no more significance than inch etc

    doug: lots of people think in px

    [doug drops out]

    dino: we can't make a decision here: css-wg owns the decision

    ed: still need to get feedback from public-fx to css-wg

CSS border and background-color on the <svg> element

    <ed>
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.ht
    ml

      [14]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0053.html

    <ed> the svg wg discussed it at the f2f,minutes here:
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item04

    doug: svg-wg looked into it, discussed at the F2F
    ... border adds geometry, so svg-wg thought it was not applicable
    ... allowing background to apply to root svg should may be a special
    case

    <dbaron>
    [16]http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTY
    PE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%20width%3A%20100px%3B%20he
    ight%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%3B%20border%3A%20medium%
    20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBox%3D%22
    0%200%20100%20100%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%20cy%3D%22
    50%22%20r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E

      [16]  
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%0A%0Asvg%20%7B%20width%3A%20100px%3B%20height%3A%20100px%3B%20background%3A%20yellow%3B%20border%3A%20medium%20solid%20fuchsia%20%7D%0A%0A%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Csvg%20viewBox%3D%220%200%20100%20100%22%3E%0A%20%20%3Ccircle%20cx%3D%2250%22%20cy%3D%2250%22%20r%3D%2250%22%20fill%3D%22green%22%20%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fsvg%3E

    dbaron: boundary between the formatting models should be at the...

    ?

    dbaron: border could change how much space you have available, but
    so do other things

    doug: that's not true now: rectangle around the SVG would not add to
    the size of the SVG

    dbaron: the case here is svg in some other content

    <dbaron> (I thought)

    doug: we have to define it for all the cases, including standalone
    svg
    ... no problem with border and background on inline svg

    dbaron: an inline svg to the CSS model is a replaced element

    <dbaron> s/at the .../at the content box/

    <dbaron> [17]http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg

      [17] http://schepers.cc/css-in-svg

    doug: most important is that they are defined, not necessarily how
    they are defined
    ... other people felt that other non-root svg elements should not
    have these properties apply
    ... in svg content, if you want to highlight something, you may want
    to change the background or make an outline

    you currently have do this through script by DOM manipulation

    it would be a lot nicer by applying css properties

    ed: you could some of that by CSS hover and more SVG content e.g
    another shape

    dbaron: I think you can have the SVG content in the tree the whole
    time, and change the fill

    doug: but then you're cluttering the DOM
    ... we see how easy this in with CSS in HTML; it's much harder in
    SVG
    ... would like a grand unification of SVG and CSS

    smfr: that's a larger topic than the one on the agenda, but could be
    useful

    doug: i'd be fine with the svg being a special case, and defining it
    as has been proposed

    ed: is that for the SVG integration spec, or something in this
    group?

    doug: if things overlap with other specs, then they go into the SVG
    Integration Spec
    ... maybe the SVG Integration Spec should be a product of public-fx
    ... SVG Integration Spec intends to fill the gaps between specs

    ed: does CSS define how borders are applied to replaced elements
    like the SVG root element?

    doug: the implementations are fairly consistent, but the behavior
    (for reference content) is not the one most people expect
    ... inline SVG behavior is fine
    ... opened an issue for SVG2 to make it easier to make autoscaling
    content
    ... rather than width/height 100%, you could say that the document
    uses autoscaling

    dougt to bring up in 2 weeks

    ed: is doug going to put something in the integration spec

    doug: css folks should email public-fx

    <scribe> ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to
    the SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Summarize the options for CSS
    applying to the SVG root before the next telecon [on Doug Schepers -
    due 2010-10-04].

'pointer-events' and (event) transparency

    [19]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item05

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/07-svg-minutes.html#item05

    ed: some differences between implementations in how pointer-events:
    auto behaves
    ... conclusion from SVG F2F: if you have inline SVG, clicks in
    transparent areas go through to the underlying content as the
    default behavior
    ... most implementations do this
    ... Firefox was the notable exception

    dbaron: we're treating the root svg element like a replaced element

    <ed> Example:
    [20]http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml

      [20] http://www.schepers.cc/svg/blendups/overlay/test/overlap.xhtml

    doug: most authors would expect events to go through to the html
    ... it should go into the integration spec

    dbaron: is the intent that SVG behaves differently that the SVG root
    element is different?

    doug: yes

    ed: is pointer-events in HTML part of any spec?

    what-wg discussion is here:
    [21]http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg22699.htm
    l

      [21] http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg@lists.whatwg.org/msg22699.html

    doug: i don't think it belongs in the SVG Integration spec. it
    belongs somewhere else
    ... i'm interested in speccing this out

    <scribe> ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Draw up a pointer-events spec [on
    Doug Schepers - due 2010-10-04].

    ed: anything else for today?

    [no response]

    dino drew up this:
    [23]http://webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html

      [23] http://webkit.org/specs/PointerEventsProperty.html

    adjourned

    ed: do you take care of posting the minutes?

    <ed> smfr: sure

    thanks

    <ed> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: david baron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: dbaron to get roc onto the next call [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: doug to draw up a pointer-events spec [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: doug to summarize the options for CSS applying to the
    SVG root before the next telecon [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html#action03]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [28]scribe.perl version 1.135
     ([29]CVS log)
     $Date: 2010/09/27 20:57:11 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Check for newer version at [30]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

FAILED: s/at the .../at the content box/
Succeeded: s/more CSS/more SVG content e.g another shape/
Succeeded: s/exect/expect/
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Inferring Scribes: smfr
Default Present: ed, +1.858.655.aaaa, plinss, smfr, dino, +1.919.824.aa
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Present: ed +1.858.655.aaaa plinss smfr dino +1.919.824.aabb dbaron she
pazu
Agenda: [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/00
89.html

      [31]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2010JulSep/0089.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 27 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: [32]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html
People with action items: baron david dbaron doug

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/27-fx-minutes.html

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.


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      [33] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 27 September 2010 21:03:25 GMT

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