W3C Forms teleconference September 1, 2010

* Present

Charlie Wiecha, IBM
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Philip Fennell, MarkLogic
Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C (chair)
Uli Lissé, DreamLabs

* Agenda


* Regrets

John Boyer, Eric Bruchez

* Resume Hiatus


* VOIP Access to Zakim

Steven Pemberton: It's under beta test at the moment.
Nick van: SIP?
Steven Pemberton: Yes.
Charlie Wiecha: And Skype?
Steven Pemberton: Yes, Skype works already.
Nick van: Skype Out.

* Action Items 2010-08-31


Steven Pemberton: We'll look at this for next week.

* XForms Tutorial

Steven Pemberton: Leigh said that the bext XSLTForms version has some bug fixes.
Leigh Klotz: I have some patches in it as well which Alain hasn't yet incorporated. I've sent it to Michael Sperberg-McQueen and I'll send it to you as well.

* Lyon


Steven Pemberton: Who is likely to turn up for our four days, beside me.
Charlie Wiecha: Probably not.
Uli Lissé: I will.
Nick van: There is a small chance that I may have a conflict.
Philip Fennell: I can't attend.

* Wiki Specs

Steven Pemberton: The OWL WG uses Wikis to create their specs. They don't have anything to release to us yet.
Steven Pemberton: Here's an example of a set of specifications produced together: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Round_8
Steven Pemberton: Here is an example of a produced PR http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/PR-owl2-profiles-20090922/
Steven Pemberton: And here's the page that the editors produce: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles
Steven Pemberton: There's also some supposedly perl code to put an existing draft into MediaWiki.
Charlie Wiecha: That's HTML or specxml?
Steven Pemberton: HTML. Then their program produces HTML.
Charlie Wiecha: Not SpecXML.
Leigh Klotz: I'm sure it could be hacked on.
Steven Pemberton: The spec page looks recognizable.
Leigh Klotz: View Wiki Source on it looks fairly clean.
Leigh Klotz: Charlie was going to do the syntax and I was going to do the program but we've got them both now.
Steven Pemberton: Are we happy?
Charlie Wiecha: Maybe some Team cross-wg support for this?
Steven Pemberton: It would fall on the systems team and they're overloaded.

Leigh Klotz: We should talk about where we need to use SpecXML as an intermediate step.
Charlie Wiecha: We should at least share code.
Steven Pemberton: This is produced by a W3C Team Member and is in SVN.

Action 2010-09-1.1: Steven Pemberton to follow up on OWL wikispec generator.

* DOM3 Events


Steven Pemberton: I think we don't have a problem with the dates.
Leigh Klotz: Then a formal reply to Art would be good, so I'll do that now.

* XBL2 implementation reports sought


Leigh Klotz: We're still adding Orbeon-style parameters and I'll report back when we're done.

* XForms 1.1 and NVDL

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Aug/0003.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jul/0026.html

Philip Fennell: I've plugged in the XForms 1.1 schema into the oXygen 11 NVDL and got it working. I'll create an XProc pipeline that runs the test cases through NVDL.
Leigh Klotz: What XProc are you using?
Philip Fennell: Calabash, although we could use others.
Leigh Klotz: This all sounds great to me. It's what the ISO/IEC committee said, to use NVDL instead of just RNG-RNG integration.
Philip Fennell: There's a Calabash extension that uses NVDL and XProc. I'd also like to integrate XSLT into the mix.
Leigh Klotz: For Schematron validation?
Philip Fennell: For doing XHTML+XForms+XSLT host document. You could use Schematron by using an XSLT transformation actions inside one of those implementations. Or you could run an XSLT1 implementation of Schematron inside an XForms implementation to validate instances.
Leigh Klotz: So you'll send out a status message or some files?
Philip Fennell: Yes, I'll zip up what I have and then start on the test suite through nvdl.
Leigh Klotz: You might be able to use Nick's XML control files for describing the test suites.
Philip Fennell: I've seen the HTML and XForms files.
Nick van: I have a language that automatically decides how to test, not how to validate. http://github.com/nvdbleek/com.orbeon.testsuite.w3c
Leigh Klotz: But we could start both schema validation and test running from the same set of control files.

* Proposed changes to XForms 1.2 XPath 2.0 support

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jan/0029.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jan/0034.html

Steven Pemberton: So you are saying we should have more precise times.
Nick van: We had some agreement in the last discussion.
Steven Pemberton: I think I agreed; stronger types are better.
Leigh Klotz: Resolution and action?
Nick van: This is part of my running action item for XPath 2.0 model.
Steven Pemberton: Any objections?

Resolution 2010-09-1.1: We agree with http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2010Jan/0029.html on XPath 2.0 function signatures.

* XML Events: proposal to extend filtering on the event phase


Steven Pemberton: We should wait for Erik, but I had an idea that this was already thec ase in XML Events 2: http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-events#TOC-Filtering-on-the-event-phase
Steven Pemberton: I have no objection but I don't know what the use case is. I don't know when you would want bubbling without target.
Leigh Klotz: It says if you omit ev:phase then target|bubble is the default.
Steven Pemberton: Absolutely. We should wait for Erik.

* JSON Serialization / Badgerfish

Leigh Klotz: Charlie had a proposal and we discussed adding in QNames for control. I contacted the Badgerfish author who sent us a good link, but didn't answer when I asked if he wanted it hosted by W3C.
Charlie Wiecha: We discussed a simple mapping for the simple XML that is easily represented by JSON; there's no notion of ordering or mixed content, so the mapping of that subset of XML into JSON would be straightforward and ehave good utility.
Steven Pemberton: So we can read all JSON but not write all XML.
Charlie Wiecha: Yes. There are cumbersome JSON mappings but they're not useful for the goal of letting XForms processors talk to JSON in the wild. There are some JSON property names have invalid characters, so there will be some magic. It's considerably simpler.
Steven Pemberton: So we need a concrete proposal.
Charlie Wiecha: We wanted a declarative way for dealing with the base case and candidate spec-ready text. There would be two levels: completely declarative by MediaType with no event handlers or callback, and also an extension mechanism to escape out and let people get out. The first part would need a concrete proposal.
Steven Pemberton: Ideally, it would be transparent (opaque) and you wouldn't see it in the form; the system would see that it's JSON and convert it. The submission would need to show it.
Leigh Klotz: We ought to serialize to whatever we call it, "Badgerfish" or whatever, not "JSON".
Steven Pemberton: Right.
Charlie Wiecha: That's a good forward-extension mechanism.
Leigh Klotz: Also we've acquired the XSLT action now so we could transform the instance in XML to make it suitable for serialization with the chosen JSON serializer. That may make it clear how the "cleanup" works.
Charlie Wiecha: Good.
Steven Pemberton: Now we need to pick which serialization we will use.
Leigh Klotz: Also we should get Alain involved as there is the XSLTForms implementation already: http://www.agencexml.com/jsoncallback/wikipediasearch.xml
Steven Pemberton: Does he do submission as well?
Leigh Klotz: No, just GET. For some reason he uses submission/resource/@value also instead of a query parameter.

* Access Control


Leigh Klotz: Need an owner for this; was Mark Birbeck. It would be nice if someone from Ubiquity would follow this more. It doesn't hit the back-end implementations as much.
Steven Pemberton: John?
Leigh Klotz: We need to ask John.
Steven Pemberton: And what abotu Cross-site requests ; Uniform Messaging Policy, Level One?
Leigh Klotz: Let's put them together.

* XML Schema 1.1 support for XForms 1.2

Needs owner, Data types, Assertions, The Rest

Steven Pemberton: Who's interested and what changes do we need?
Leigh Klotz: The biggest is probably assertions.
Steven Pemberton: Since all we do is include Schemas, does XForms need to do anything?
Leigh Klotz: I don't know.
Steven Pemberton: Who loves schemas?
Philip Fennell: I'm tempted to say I'm interested. I don't know how much time it will take.

Action 2010-09-1.2: Philip Fennel to review XML Schema 1.1 for XForms 1.2 and report what might need to be done.

* IRC Minutes


* Meeting Ends