Re: [Proposal][SKOS-Core] skos:denotes

Hello Miles, everybody.


Ok, thank you for this good answer.

what I am looking for is the thing mentioned in [1], the
skos:subject
and skos:hasSubject.

about the denotes [2]:
This is a good idea to map to SUMO or Wordnet!

>I'm just thinking, perhaps a more detailed description of your requirements
>here could help us with this problem ... could you expand a little on these
>for us?
>
Yes, i am glad you asked.

In the ongoing gnowsis project [3] I have a problem with seperating 
content from concept [4].
Read [4] or this:

I had this discussion already a year ago with Barbara Geyer from the FH 
Eisenstadt. Experienced in Knowledge Management Projects, she pointed me 
to "seperate concept from instances"

In my current gnowsis nightly <http://www.gnowsis.org/Download/> build, 
this is not really done, but I have strong feelings towards it :-)

The background: When I write a generic Semantic Web app, I have to make 
a User Interface also. The question is now, how to render an RDF graph, 
that has by itself no structure at all. RDF graphs are just graphs, 
based on RDF itself you cannot even identify classes and instances. So 
you need more information to display the stuff, for example you can use:

    * RDF-S <http://www.gnowsis.org/Download/> info to treat classes
      other than resources. And express subclass/subproperty relations
    * DublinCore <http://www.dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/> to
      indentify prominent parts of a graph that you can display "in front"
    * DublinCore <http://www.dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/> to
      identify partOf / relatedTo things.
    * SKOS <http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core/> to organize these
      things into concept schemes. Seperate Instances from Concepts

The thing with RDF is, that *concepts are also instances*, in the view 
of RDF resource instances. So you need to seperate the concepts somehow 
from the instances.

SKOS example:
I want my user interface to be something like this (hope you have visual 
browsers, this is a table)

Sidebar
	Resources
Concepts
  Projects
     ALOHA
      BETA
     GNOWSIS
        development
        meetings
           21.7.2004-DFKI
         presentations
            10.9.2004-DFKI
     SKOS
        thesauri
 Topics
   Semantic Web
   Ui design
   DFKI
   ....
	Emails
   sadfasdfsadf
   asdfasdfasdf

Appointments
  asdfasdf
   asdasdfasdff

Files
   harhar.pdf
   test.doc


So the idea is to have a knowledge management application.
A tree made out of SKOS ConceptSchemes on the left.
When a Concept is selected, the associated resources of the user are 
shown to the right.

The tree is always visible and I can drag/drop resources into it.

The key point is:
I want to replace all these bad folder structures and email folder 
structures and bookmark folder structures with this SKOS structures.
And I want to have all applications share the same SKOS.


So, you esw-thes people out there,
wouldn't this be a fine thing for Semantic Web?

(in the next gnowsis alpha release, I have coded it....
I coded today the interfaces similiar to your skos api.
and a project management tool to show the idea  :-)

cheers
Leo

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Oct/0081.html

[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Sep/0041.html

[3] http://www.gnowsis.org
[4] http://leobard.twoday.net/stories/360443/

Es begab sich aber zu der Zeit 14.10.2004 16:24,  da Miles, AJ 
(Alistair) schrieb:

>Hi Leo,
>
>To answer the easiest question first, the 'traditional' way to use SKOS
>concepts is as the values in a subject-based index of documents.  There is a
>proposal on the table [1] for a 'skos:subject' property, which basically
>behaves in the same way to the 'dc:subject' property, i.e. you will be able
>to state:
>
><rdf:RDF /*standard namespaces*/>
>
>  <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://foo.com/somedoc.html">
>    <skos:subject rdf:resource="http://bar.com/some#concept"/>
>  </rdf:Description>
>
></rdf:RDF>
>
>Of course, there are many other scenarios emerging in which SKOS concepts
>can be used (and your use case is expanding the set I had imagined so far
>:).  For example, a SKOS concept can be depicted by an image, or a SKOS
>concept could be a topic of interest or expertise for a person ...
>
>Anyway.  Another set of scenarios (including yours I think) requires us to
>be able to express a relationship between a SKOS concept and an RDFS/OWL
>Class/Individual that 'intends'/'represents'/'denotes' the same (or similar)
>thing.  This requirement was the basis for the original 'skos:denotes'
>proposal [2] which has been argued for by danbri (see e.g. [3]).
>
>However, others have argued that a relationship of meaning between a SKOS
>concept and an RDFS/OWL Class/Individual is essentially the same as a
>mapping relationship between two SKOS concepts (see e.g. [4]).  Or in other
>words, there is no difference in the level of abstraction between a SKOS
>concept and an RDFS/OWL Class/Individual.  Hence a 'skos:denotes' property
>is not appropriate.
>
>So this debate is currently poised :)  
>
>I'm just thinking, perhaps a more detailed description of your requirements
>here could help us with this problem ... could you expand a little on these
>for us?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Alistair.
>
>[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Oct/0081.html
>[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Sep/0041.html
>[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Sep/0067.html
>[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Oct/0005.html
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: public-esw-thes-request@w3.org
>[mailto:public-esw-thes-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Leo Sauermann
>Sent: 14 October 2004 09:46
>To: public-esw-thes@w3.org
>Subject: Re: [Proposal][SKOS-Core] skos:denotes
>
>
>Danbri:
>
>  
>
>>RDF tries to impose some basic design constraints across all projects
>>that use it, to make things easier for data-merging, extensibility
>>etc. What we're doing with skos:represents (or whatever it gets
>>called) is coming up with a little add-on that helps SKOS-based RDF
>>data work better with non-SKOS RDF data.
>>    
>>
>
>
>I could not follow the whole discussion, because I began thinking about skos
>a week ago
>http://leobard.twoday.net/stories/360443/
>
>My Goal is:
>
>I want to build stuctures that are independent of nromal RDF instances, that
>means: I want to model things like "Job" 
>"Private" "ProjectX" and form these things as SKOS:Concepts
>
>then I have emails, files, photos, websites, etc that I want to add to these
>SKOS:concepts
>
>Ideal:
>SKOS concepts
>REAL LIFE Resources
>
>JOB
> - Project X
>     - Meeting 23.10.2004
> - Project Y
>Email "skos;denoites"
>File "skos image"
>Website "skos website"
>Website "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw"
>
>
>now I want
><meeting 23.10.2004> <????> <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw>
>
>
>the problem:
>You forgot to add somehting to skos that allows to acutally USE skos.
>A thesaurus /taxonomy/  whatever is only useful when I can link it to
>external RDF resources,
>
>All predicates in SKOS are having domain/range skos Concepts,
>but SKOS concepts are a closed thing and I want to create triples from skos
>to the outer world.
>The "real" resources out there in the world are of type email, file, person,
>vcard, vEvent
>
>So, please,
>tell me which property I have to use to hang real resources to a SKOS
>concept.
>is this SKOS:denotes?
>
>is it dc:hasPart ?
>
>cheers
>Leo
>
>  
>