- From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:59:20 +0100
- To: public-bpwg@w3.org
The minutes for today's call are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html
... and copied as text below.
I'll send a separate note, but remember to complete the questionnaires
for next F2Fs ASAP (and even before!):
- Zaragoza:
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWGDDWGF2FZARAGOZA/
- Seoul (mandatory for everyone even if you don't intend to go):
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/seoulf2f/
Francois.
21 Feb 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Feb/0099.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-irc
Attendees
Present
Bryan, Chaals, DKA, DRooks, EdM, Francois, Jo, Kai, Magnus,
MartinJ, Miguel, SeanOwen, SeanP, Shah, Tony, Yeliz
Regrets
murari, AdamC, AlanTai, Aaron, rob, nacho, PhilA, hgerlach
Chair
DKA
Scribe
chaals
Jo
francois
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]New members
2. [6]TaskForce reports
3. [7]Content Transformation
4. [8]MobileOK Pro TF
5. [9]Checker TF
6. [10]Korea F2F
7. [11]Agenda discussion
8. [12]Accessibility Document
9. [13]Zaragoza F2F
10. [14]Accessibility (again)
11. [15]mobileOK Pro Task Force report
12. [16]BP2
13. [17]Zaragoza F2F again
* [18]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
New members
DKA: Jeff Sonstein from ...
JS: I teach stuff. I talked about One Web and as penance I have to
be here (or something like that)
DKA: Tony, ByteMobile
Tony Johansson: work in engineering, putting internet on mobiles.
DKA: Do you see ByteMobile using best practices to present content
to devices?
TJ: Yes.....
TaskForce reports
Content Transformation
FD: Hope we can now work on practical stuff and not administrivia.
Goal is to rework the current draft and present to the WG next week.
DKA: Could we review document before next week's call?
FD: In an ideal case. It will be short...
<Zakim> jo, you wanted to note that I have a FPWD of DDWG API to do
by next week too ...
JR: I wanted to note that I have a FPWD of DDWG API to do by next
week too ... so getting out a draft by Tuesday means I will ahve to
actualy work all night and over the weekend too...
... and more to the point that the format may not be totally perfect
as per my usual standards by then
MobileOK Pro TF
JR: I was lurking. Sounds like there is work going on. There is a
regular telecon, a mailing list, and a promising discussion of a
number of substantive issues.
DKA: That's my impression too.
Checker TF
DKA: Checker went Beta.
SO: No comments yet since we released - and I haven't had time since
then, although there is outstanding work to do
DKA: Was demoed at W3C stand, Mobile World Congress in Barcelona.
FD: Wish there was feedback...
... we had some hassles setting up our web interface stuff for demos
(The Demonstrator Gods strike again!!)
... most sites checked were not mobileOK, except sevenVal which came
back OK.
<DKA> 7val's wikipedia site at wikipedia.7val.com
FD: so only one t-shirt given away
DKA: There was a useful wikipedia production site...
... not just passing teh checker but also received no warnings.
... they can also take advantage of advanced capabilities, e.g. to
use javascript where available
<yeliz> can't access this site [19]http://weblog.200ok.org.au
[19] http://weblog.200ok.org.au/
Korea F2F
DKA: There is a registration form - please fill it in.
<francois> [20]Seoul F2F registration
[20] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/seoulf2f/
DKA: You need to fill out the registration if you are interested in
coming. I am exceited about the mobile wednesday thing
<francois> [Note the questionnaire is mandatory even if one doesn't
plan to go there]
DKA: and should help to stimulate dialogue, etc.
s/can't access this site [21]http://weblog.200ok.org.au//
[21] http://weblog.200ok.org.au//
Agenda discussion
JR: Dan, you haven't actually structured anything yet?
DKA: No, although I saw you had done a lot of great work, I didn't
get around to following up yet
<jo> ACTION: Dan to draft an agenda for the Korea F2F by tomorrow
[recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-662 - Draft an agenda for the Korea F2F
by tomorrow [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-28].
<yeliz> /me
DKA: My preference is to talk about meaty issues, in particular BP 2
and filling it out with actual stuff. That requires people to come
prepared with teh top 5 things they want to see
s/I can access that URL now, thanks \/me//
<jo> s/\/me//
BS: I have put a bunch of stuff together...
DKA: Hopefully we will have enough to issue a FPWD
... and we are filling out stuff for MobileOK Pro
JR: There are some pretty solid issues around Content
Transformation. So we expect some unanswered questions that it would
be good to discuss - https, UA strings, etc...
Accessibility Document
AC: zakim, who is making noise?
<achuter>
[23]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/d
rafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#MEASURES
[23]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#MEASURES
Zaragoza F2F
DKA: Cannot attend the suggested date 9-13. Think that means we
should change it.
<jo> [24]Pop Ups
[24]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#POP_UPS
JR: Sounds like an excellent time to hold it to me
<edm> Please see Nacho's e-mail re Zaragoza f2f -
[25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/0074.htm
l
[25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2008Feb/0074.html
JR: The poll is only accessible to DDWG - and we can't fix that
until Monday. meanwhile, we have to make up our minds in a big
hurry.
<jo> [26]Zaragoza Poll
[26] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37583/Zaragoza-f2f/
DKA: Looks like 16-20 is the preferred alternate for DDWG
<edm> ... but as Nacho points out all we have for now is what we
have now is a pre-reservation for the week of June 9-13 ...
We could send an email poll toget at least an idae before Monday
FD: We could set up a secon poll for this group
<scribe> ACTION: Francois to set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
[recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
<scribe> ACTION: Francois set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
[recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Francois
<francois> ACTION: Daoust set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
[recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-663 - Set up a poll for BPWG due in one
hour [on François Daoust - due 2008-02-28].
<achuter> jo said in minutes last week "resume doc review at POP_UPs
next time]"
FD after the call: See [30]the end of the minutes for the duplicated
questionnaire's URI.
Accessibility (again)
<jo> [31]Pop Ups
[31]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#POP_UPS
JR: We got to Pop-ups last time, let's resume from there
AC: Pop-ups are a problem for people who are not seeing the whole
screen, or not sure what is going on and end up closing the whole
browser instead of just spare windows
JR: Think this is fine
CMN: agrees
BS: So pop-ups should not be used?
AC: You need to tell the user if you are going to open a popup
... following the mobile BP means not using them, and tra-la
... It is probably difficult for this group to comment on WCAG since
almost nobody knows it here...
DKA: There is no WCAG statement for "provide defaults"?
[I agree that this is a WCAG problem. There was something related in
WCAG 1, but ...]
JR: Since it is not clearly testable, it is not in WCAG. In most
cases we find that Mobile BP helps accessibility even when it makes
no difference to WCAG 2 compliance (the story is different for WCAG
1)
... we should limit our comments to things that are unclear or
incomplete
AC: REDIRECTIONS - confuses people because they don't there has been
a redirect, or because they have not been able to read what was
there before it changed
CMN: Thinks this is fine
AC: SCROLLING
CMN: This one is fine
AC: users with reading difficulties can have trouble scrolling
around and staying oriented. multiple-direction scroll increases the
load on people with limited input capability
[it also helps disorient people using serious zoom without
fit-to-width]
JR: Structure - this gives you WCAG compliance. But this isn't
intended only to cover heading structure in BP. Seems good to me.
DKA: Could we mark out the practices that do contribute to
compliance with an icon?
<achuter>
[32]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/d
rafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#extending_MWBP10_WCAG20
[32]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/Accessibility/drafts/ED-mwbp-wcag-20080129/mwbp-wcag20.html#extending_MWBP10_WCAG20
JR:
AC: The link shows the correspondence...
JR: Style sheets...
<jo> Scribe: Jo
<scribe> scribenick: jo
AC: this helps people who don't see the effects of style sheets etc.
<yeliz> yeliz, unmute me
dka: that cover sytle sheets use too?
ac: no but the benefits are similar
yeliz: might be useful to detail how this helps
dka: that level of detail could get us into trouble
ac: it would be nice to give example but would be a lot of work
yeliz: in some cases you do give some examples so might be an idea
to do so here
dka: yeliz do you want to contribute some examples
<jeffs> perhaps RIT can find a way to be helpful with
building/testing examples
<scribe> ACTION: Yeliz to provide some examples to put into the
document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-664 - Provide some examples to put into
the document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [on Yeliz
Yesilada - due 2008-02-28].
jeffs: we can talk offline on what we can supply by way of examples
<yeliz> yeliz, mute me
dka: STYLE_SHEET_USE
<scribe> ACTION: chuter to talk to Jeffs about what support they can
provide on examples [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-665 - Talk to Jeffs about what support
they can provide on examples [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-02-28].
dka: I have a problem with nomenclature - possibly covered,
partially covered and possibly/partially covered
ac: it is intentional but may not be correct
dka: think that will be confusing to readers
ac: partially is about scope possibly is about whether it will or
note
<yeliz> I think it would be good to define them
ac: think they should be defined somewhere
dka: why don't you put in a pra in the intro to define that
jo: resume from TAB_ORDER next time
bryan: we need to think about whether they make sense for mobility
... e.g. pop ups will be in line and other that will be conflicting
jo: yes this will be of importance when we are looking at WCAG to BP
corresponding
ac: my comment was about whether mobile devices do actually support
switching of style sheet
<chaals> [Yes Alan, at least some do
<Zakim> Kai, you wanted to ask about mobileOK Pro report
mobileOK Pro Task Force report
<Kai> Kai: Here is some more information, for your perusal, from the
mail I had sent to the list..
<Kai> - The tests have been reworked by the TF
<Kai> - I am currently in the process of casting the document into
an editor's draft
<Kai> - Due to eskalations here at work I am unable to deliver the
first draft today.
<Kai> Hopefully by early next week I will be able to do so.
<Kai> - Charter has been amended and submitted to WG for approval
<Kai> - Website for TF has been created
<Kai> - Access for me as Editor and Author is being dealt with by
Francois (I would appreciate some information to progress)
<Kai> - Telco has been created and the first one held yesterday
<Kai> Open points:
<Kai> There is a F2F meeting March 19th at the Vodafone Offices at
80 Strand, London Begin 9 am End ca. 4-6 pm
BP2
<chaals> s/AC: Yes/[Yes Alan/
Bryan: I sent out a number of firestarter emails on the sections
that are in the requirements doc
... a number of responses and some specific suggestions
... I will get these into a draft
... for Seoul, have we got the scope right?
dka: I was hoping we could have discussion on scope
... on this call to help refine the scope
... Jo posted on ACTION-660 Reprise
<francois> ScribeNick: francois
DKA: my intention is to get to a resolution re the scope of the BP2
Jo: One of the things that strikes me is that we don't have in the
document a clear definition of what a web application is and what it
isn't
... we did discuss that in Boston
... about the browser sandbox or not
... I think we should take some time to define precisely a web
application
Bryan: there is a scope section which does define, based on November
talks, a web application
<Kai> I like it
<Bryan> BP2 extends the focus to Web applications generally, which
means an application that is accessed and presented via Web
technologies.
<srowen> I think it can be sharpened to mention HTTP, an (X)HTML
<DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: A "Mobile Web Application" shall be
defined as an application that runs inside the browser on a mobile
device. Such applications often make use of scripting, CSS, and Dom
manipulation.
<jo> [35]2 Scope
[35]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20080213#iddiv2126631496BP
Jo: is Chatzilla a mobile web application?
DKA: yes
<srowen> agree that we do not need to talk about "browser", since
our focus is the content and server side. But we can be more
specific in mentioning HTTP, XHTML, CSS, Javascript
Bryan: when you say "inside the browser"... Browser technologies in
general are used outside the browser
DKA: Joost is a good example of a desktop web application
... but I think that's out of scope
Jo: I do not think this is a sufficient categorization
... I don't think it's a sharp enough definition
<Kai> From Wikipedia: In software engineering, a Web application or
webapp is an application that is accessed via Web over a network
such as the Internet or an intranet.
<Kai> It has been suggested that Browser application be merged into
this article or section.
<srowen> How about this: A Mobile Web application is an application
primarily intended for usage by mobile devices rather than desktop
devices, using HTML or XHTML delivered over HTTP, and typically
employing CSS and scripting such as Javascript.
Jeff: originally in the browser context but now not in the browser
context anymore
<jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: WE should define a specific set of
criteria that need to be fulfilled to be a Mobile Web Application
<jeffs> agree w srowen suggestion above
Sean: I think we need to make clear we're targetting xml over HTTP,
mobile devices, and scripting
<srowen> Dan -- you mentioned the browser, which I don't think is
necessary (per Messr. Sullivan), and didn't mention HTTP or HTML,
which seems vital
<chaals> [I don't see that w should be targetting things
specifically for mobile devices rather than web, just things that
are designed to work well for mobile devices as part of teh web]
<Kai> [I agree with Chaals. Where is One Web?]
Bryan: we should separate web applications and content type
<srowen> what on earth are we going to talk about that *isn't*
related to HTTP and HTML
Bryan: I would not limit the BP to XML, XHTML, HTML
... we should not limit our scope to them
<jo> Actionscript ...
<srowen> give me an example of a legitimate existing practice
related to advanced mobile devices that does not relate to the
technologies listed so far
DKA: we should focus on existing web technologies
<srowen> if we can't, then I don't see what the problem is with
being specific and clear about what we are, in reality, talking
about anyway
+1 to srowen remarks
<edm> how about sticking to what is enabled by the existing
technologies - including specifically XHTML/HTML, CSS, DOM,
ECMAscript, AJAX, SVG?
Jo: I think we're going to end up in circles if we don't come up
with something precise
<DKA> I'm back
DKA: we should build on the Web as a platform
Jo: That would seem to encompass Java applets
<edm> +1 to focusing on the web as a platform - and perhaps browsers
as application containers?
<Zakim> jo, you wanted to mention SVG, XML, the use of XMLHTTP
interfaces
DKA: it should be about using web technologies without plugins
Bryan: In general, regardless of where the application runs, if it
operates as a browser, then it is a browser, and is under the scope
... The applications that use HTTP as a transport and windows fall
in the scope.
<srowen> Agree, don't care whether we're talking about user agents
based on MIDP or Symbian or ham sandwiches. But we seem to be
talking about HTML/CSS/HTTP user agents, so let's say that much.
Don't say "browser" if you don't want, I agree that is not
necessary.
Bryan: We're really talking about user experience
... of web applications
... that's the charter I believe
<DKA>
[36]http://www.openajax.org/whitepapers/Introducing%20Ajax%20and%20O
penAjax.html#What_is_Ajax
[36]
http://www.openajax.org/whitepapers/Introducing%20Ajax%20and%20OpenAjax.html#What_is_Ajax
<Zakim> Kai, you wanted to say that web applications include
services that are exposed via web technologies. If they are intended
for mobile usage they are game
Kai: web applications are something that offer a service.
... I like Bryan's initial definition
... I don't find it too general
<Zakim> jo, you wanted to say the plugin definition excludes SVG and
a bunch of other stuff that we would want to include and to wonder
if we are talking about applications that are based
<srowen> Final remark: let's start by listing out best practices. I
posted 5-6 to the list. At the end of the day, if we find that the
real, good practices we can mention concern only HTTP/HTML/etc. then
we can comfortably state that *that* is what we are talking about.
Sure, let's not decide that a priori if that is unpalatable.
Jo: I'm wondering whether we're talking about applications that are
using the DOM
DKA: that makes sense
... is there a W3C definition that we could use?
... Let's have the topic back in next week's call
<Zakim> francois, you wanted to talk about Zaragoza questionnaire
once you're done Dan
DKA: I will create an issue and then we can discuss it on the
mailing-list
Zaragoza F2F again
-> [37]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWGDDWGF2FZARAGOZA/
Zaragoza F2F
[37] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/37584/BPWGDDWGF2FZARAGOZA/
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: chuter to talk to Jeffs about what support they can
provide on examples [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Dan to draft an agenda for the Korea F2F by tomorrow
[recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Daoust set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
[recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Francois set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
[recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Francois to set up a poll for BPWG due in one hour
[recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Yeliz to provide some examples to put into the
document - specifically on STYLE_SHEET_SUPPORT [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/21-bpwg-minutes.html#action05]
[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 21 February 2008 16:59:24 UTC