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Re: What will incentivize deployment of explicit proxies?

From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:08:15 -0800
Message-ID: <CAHBU6itt2cXRoi3SZPbB1vrzZzmi9kaWrKGUW9j8atO1RfY=cg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Yoav Nir <synp71@live.com>
Cc: William Chan (陈智昌) <willchan@chromium.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Werner Baumann <werner.baumann@onlinehome.de>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Whatever we ask people, a very high proportion are going to take the
default. This is independent of how much work you put into the UX.  Thus,
it’s very very important that we design things such that the “default
default” is safe, and that it’s difficult or impossible to configure a
network installation with unsafe defaults.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Yoav Nir <synp71@live.com> wrote:

> "Don't let anybody kid you. It's all personal, every bit of business."
>
> In this case, I disagree with Martin. This is not a problem that we can
> avoid externalizing. Deciding whether a particular proxy is acceptable to
> the user of a browser requires information that we don't have. We don't
> have it at the IETF, and we don't have it where browsers are developed.
>
> A browser can learn of the existence of a TLS proxy. This information may
> come from an HTTP code, a TLS alert, DHCP, DNS, or whatever other discovery
> mechanism we can think of. Whether this proxy is acceptable depends on so
> many factors:
>
>  * Who deployed this proxy? (can probably be deduced from name in its
>    certificate, but only sort-of) Maybe your workplace is acceptable,
>    but the ISP or some other workplace is not.
>  * What is it doing with the cleartext traffic?  Caching? Filtering?
>    Recording? Looking for terrorism/criminal activity? Assuring a
>    non-hostile workplace?  There are no technical ways to know these
>    things. You'll have to learn them by social means - ask the IT
>    person, ask your boss, require by law all installed proxies to
>    disclose what they are doing. None of this can be done by Will or
>    his security team.
>  * Does the product used for the proxy have a recording function that
>    can be used in case of a legal mandate?  If so, what procedural
>    mechanism protects the users from someone at IT using it to spy on them?
>  * Does the product used for the proxy have a backdoor for
>    interception?  Will and his security team don't know. The boss and
>    the IT person may not know that either.
>
> It's a complex decision affected by many objective factors and some
> subjective attributes of the user. This is not a decision we can make on
> behalf of the user. This is very different from reporting on a bad
> certificate.
>
> Hopefully, this will be a rare decision that users don't have to face
> every day.
>
> Yoav
>
>
>
> On 7/12/13 12:12 AM, William Chan (陈智昌) wrote:
>
>> Hey hey, there's no reason to make this personal :) I never said I
>> have no responsibility here. I just tried to make a funny quip that
>> the...more passionate factions of the larger Chromium project will be
>> very...passionate in their response to certain ideas. Is there a
>> reason you wish to make this about me all of a sudden?
>>
>> Let me be clear, I in general think it's terrible to burden the user
>> with decisions which they are largely unable to reason about. And I
>> think it's wrong to expect them to have the knowledge to reason about
>> it. And I disagree with the argument that browser vendors must provide
>> all possible configuration options so users can do whatever they want.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6 December 2013 12:26, Werner Baumann <werner.baumann@onlinehome.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [...] the dogma that users are stupid.
>>>>
>>> Not stupid, never stupid.  It's respect.
>>>
>>> UI surface area imposes costs upon users.  We cannot - should not -
>>> externalize our problems by shunting them on users.
>>>
>>> This isn't purely a security problem either; there are security
>>> aspects to this, but they aren't the only concerns.  I expect better
>>> of Will than to try to shift focus onto some faceless "security team",
>>> he owns some responsibility here too.
>>>
>>>
>
>
Received on Friday, 6 December 2013 23:08:44 UTC

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