WS Description WG telcon

20 Oct 2005

See also: IRC log


Rebecca Bergersen, IONA Technologies
Allen Brookes, Rogue Wave Software
Roberto Chinnici, Sun Microsystems
Glen Daniels, Sonic Software
Paul Downey, British Telecommunications
Youenn Fablet, Canon
Hugo Haas, W3C
Anish Karmarkar, Oracle
Jacek Kopecky, DERI Innsbruck at the Leopold-Franzens-Universitšt Innsbruck, Austria
Amelia Lewis, TIBCO
Kevin Canyang Liu, SAP
Jean-Jacques Moreau, Canon
David Orchard, BEA Systems
Bijan Parsia, University of Maryland MIND Lab
Tony Rogers, Computer Associates
Arthur Ryman, IBM
Asir Vedamuthu, Microsoft
Sanjiva Weerawarana, Invited Expert
Tom Jordahl, Macromedia
Umit Yalcinalp, SAP


<Marsh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/att-0023/20051013-ws-desc-minutes.html

<Marsh> Resolution: Minutes approved

<jjm> Last week minutes approved

<pauld> my SPARQL Protocol review: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/0034.html

Action Item Review

?         2005-07-21: pauld to write a proposal for a working group 
                      report for requirements for schema evolution 
                      following closure of LC124 
DONE [.6] 2005-09-26: Arthur to figure out how to treat built-in schema 
                      types. (LC315), due 2005-10-06. 
?         2005-09-26: DaveO to draft a response and send to the WG. 
                      (LC335), due 2005-10-06. 
?         2005-09-26: Arthur to draft above as a proposal to be able to 
                      close this issue (LC344#5), due 2005-10-06. 
?         2005-09-26: Arthur to look for simplification options for 
                      comment 12 of 344. (LC344#12), due 2005-10-06. 
?         2005-09-26: Jonathan to point this out when it gets 
                      Implemented (LC344#13), due 2005-10-06. 
?         2005-09-26: Sanjiva and Roberto to investigate defaulting with 
                      interfaceless bindings (LC333), due 2005-10,06 
?         2005-10-06: Marsh to investigate LC301 re .NET scenarios, 
                      due 2005-10-13. 
?         2005-10-06: Charlton to augment Hugo's proposal with 
                      parameters for all serializations, and syntax 
                      for suppressing parameters, due 2005-10-13. 
DONE [.3] 2005-10-13: Marsh to add RDF links to home page, 
                      due 2005-10-20. 
DONE [.7] 2005-10-13: Paul and Glen to review SPARQL draft, 
                      due 2005-10-20. 
DONE      2005-10-13: Tony to review I18N draft, due 2005-10-20. 
DONE [.4] 2005-10-13: Sanjiva to write up his style-based generic 
                      mapping in to media type (LC304), due 2005-10-20.  
DONE [.5] 2005-10-13: Hugo to write up URI's describing architected 
                      serialization format extensibility point 
                      (LC304), due 2005-10-20. 

Current Editorial Action Items 
?         2005-07-21: Arthur to add stable identifiers for each 
                      assertion, due 2005-09-26. 
?         2005-09-26: editors to fix the first paragraph of section 4 
                      ... does not make sense at all right now. 
                      (LC344#5), due 2005-10-06. 
?         2005-09-26: Editors to add a sentence saying {address} is 
                      optional because it could be defined by other 
                      means, such as an WS-A endpoint reference or maybe 
                      the scenario does not require an address. 
                      (LC344#13), due 2005-10-06. 
?         2005-09-26: Editors fix "Case Elements NOT cited" in 
                      header to be "Case of elements NOT cited" (LC345), 
                      due 2005-10-06. 

Note: Editorial AIs associated with LC issues recorded at [.2]. 

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions 
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/5/lc-issues/actions_owner.html 
[.3] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/ 
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/0022.html 
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/0028.html 
[.6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/0027.html 
[.7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/0034.html

RDF mapping

Table not really progressing

Publish what we have

Jacek: Ready to help

Marsh: Will look at status etc. with Hugo

Hugo: explain in status section that we are looking for feedback

Marsh: not sure if Semantic Web WG will move to recommendation
... need to know who the customers of this note are


Paul: query language for querying RDF triples
... built a protocol, described in WSDL
... raised 3 LC comments, mainly on HTTP binding
... have in-out query, bound to HTTP in SOAP; also HTTP version with POST and GET
... bunch of examples
... they will have to republish their document

Marsh: is it a standalone document, we could validate with Arthur's validator?

<bijan> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-sparql-protocol-20050914/sparql-protocol-query.wsdl

Paul: yes, schema and WSDL

Arthur: could be contributed to our test suite?

Paul: would be neat

Marsh: do we need permission?

Arthur: is it a final document?

Paul: Last Call document

<scribe> ACTION: Bijan to contact WG to ask for contribution to test suite [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01]

<Marsh> ACTION: Marsh to forward nits to SPARQL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02]

Marsh: any other comments?

Arthur: have they given up to their objection in parantheses?

Bijan: pat was still unhappy, but realized something has to be done anyway

I18N review

<pauld> one last SPARQL nit: the document relies upon the reading of several external documents - a WSDL and a pair of schemas, the links of which are buried in the document. In the case of the schemas you have to hop through their namespace documents. Might be nice to have a separate table calling out these links.

<Marsh> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-ws-i18n-20050914/

Tony: very involved in WSDL, mentionned on line 3, however no bibliographical reference
... also references WS-Routing
... nothing but a few typos, pretty clean

Marsh: relation to WSDL: defining some headers?

Tony: yes
... if only one locale, should be in french
... they produced something we will be able to use

<Arthur> gotta go, bye

Marsh: can't start NCName with $ sign (example 6)

Tony: section 3.2, the locale element, missing element in enumeration

Marsh: should ask for clarification re. $ sign
... should be interesting to see the type pointed to
... section 3.2 show a value of user: confusing
... referencing to WS-Routing wrong, missing WSDL

Tony: also example 4 are in fact two different examples
... example5, should not be de_de but de-de

<scribe> ACTION: Tony to write up issues on I18N draft and email to WSD mailing-list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03]

Editorial issues

Skipping over for now


Not checked, skip over


Marsh: proposal from Hugo, worth some discussion

<Marsh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/0028.html

Hugo: last week, discussed ambiguities in way serialization format could be extended
... in consequence, 2 action items
... looked at how to use URIs for extensibility points
... instead of using mediatype, use URIs for the 3 serialization format that we define
... also, in light of resolution for LC337, change type of in/...fault serialization mediatypes to URIs as well
... this will fix the extensibility ambiguity
... can now say: return XML/RDF or XML/whatever using a URI defined for that purpose
... will lose mediatype parameters, however their use was unclear

Marsh: my understanding not just what mediatype is, but how you go from XML structure defined in WSDL/Schema to that mediatype
... need some mechanism to go from XML to MIME package
... with RDF, several possibility for serialization

Sanjiva: our we going to specify how to go, e.g. base64 to image/jpeg, and do so for every serialization we define?

Marsh: do you think we could have a generic way of mapping from XML to mediatype?

Sanjiva: yes

Marsh: e.g. RDF constrained with Schema

Sanjiva: put schema in serialization

Marsh: what if what to put mediatype as well?

Sanjiva: should then introduce httpMediatype

DaveO: separate issue: idea of having URIs for mediatypes is fabulous, TAG (or whoever) precisely asked IANA to use such a mechanism
... IANA did produce a few, but not much
... W3C could well define some and provide mapping to mediatypes

<Zakim> hugo, you wanted to talk about RDF Schema, SPARQL-based micro-syntax

Marsh: a little more subtle

Hugo: naming serialization format with mediatype is problematic, because on the wire may be similar, although different mediatypes
... there could be several serialization formats sending application/RDF+XML
... changing the name of serialization format to URI is a simple change
... changing completely serialization formats is bigger change

Amy: has similar problem to sanjiva
... unlike DaveO, we're not getting much here
... if 1-to-1 mapping from mediatype to URI, then what are we getting unless incompatibility?

Hugo: not proposing to use URI just in place of mediatype token
... believe one could come up with several application/RDF+xml serialization format
... would all use that as their content type
... however could use different rules

Amy: would there be a schema for the messages in RDF?
... and thus need mapping
... multiple mappings to mediatype; but where would WSDL mediate that interaction?

Marsh: spec now has 3 sections/3 serialization, could define URIs "representing" these sections

<alewis> so the issues is that when we define serialization for a particular media type, we "use up" that media type and preclude other mappings?

Marsh: for example, XML serialized into an HTTP GET. Now we have a second serialization format, but still the same mediatype

Asir: are we asking for 1 or 2 properties?

Hugo: proposes a simple fix: using URIs
... possibly better solutions, but too late in game
... URI would provide an identifier
... either you know the serialization format and can make sense of the data, or you don't and can't

Sanjiva: don't want to delay spec
... but if should have 2 properties, then let's have them

<Zakim> Marsh, you wanted to ask how well this solution solves the SPARQL issue.

Sanjiva: WSDL URIs not a solution for me

Marsh: would this solve SPARQL issues?

Hugo: email with kendal clark, pretty happy
... not convinced that spec as it stands + LC337 is enough

Marsh: could we say this is the content type that gets over the wire?

Hugo: either keep current situation (but need clarifications, e.g. what does it mean if foo/bar as contenttype but not defined in WSDL spec),
... ... or use URIs as proposed, or use a solution similar to Sanjiva's.
... status quo will not make it because spec is currently unclear

Marsh: worried to put options forward at this stage, still some confusion

Asir: RDF issue only?

Hugo: no, more general, although indeed problem was raised from RDF

Asir: previously had encodingType in SOAP binding; isn't this similar?

Hugo: maybe people will be happy to use only the 3 serialization formats we defined; but some people are already trying to use others
... suppose want to use RELAXNG for the format of messages, none of our formats (except application/xml) can be used (because rely on XML Schema)
... so, here is a very concrete example
... will need to introduce a new property in the binding, like rngHTTPSerialization format

<hugo> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2005Oct/0038.html

Marsh: can we agree on some principles?
... do we want RDF+XML to be usable out of the box?

Jacek: not quite, but if constrain our bindings too much, then there is an issue

Marsh: do we need more than Hugo's solution?
... maybe discuss options by email? but then only one option really standing, and discussion for several weeks now

Jacek: in favour of Hugo's proposal

<alewis> i'm not really happy with it.

Marsh: anyone unhappy and willing to see something different?

Youenn: sanjiva's proposal with 2 properties may be better

Marsh: sanjiva could you put your proposal on the list?

<alewis> hugo just suggested pretty much what i was going to say, only a little more clearly. existing property in IANA media-type format, additional property that points at a mapping, using a URI.

Hugo: will draft something along the lines of sanjiva's

<scribe> ACTION: Hugo to send email describing sanjiva's 2 properties proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04]


Marsh: comment from I18N WG

Hugo: pretty easy

Marsh: oh ye?
... should mention that xsi:anyURI, although supporting IRIs in principal, has no mapping currently in such form (???)
... anyone with a better clue?
... what does this mapping mean?
... 1) adopt as is; or 2) go back and ask for clarification?

<scribe> ACTION: Marsh to go send email asking for clarification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action05]


Marsh: inconsistency of where faults are placed in bindings
... move tranferCoding

Hugo: sounds good

Resolution: accepted as is
... move tranferCoding from infault and outfault to binding fault


Marsh: typo: missing "r"

Resolution: resolved


Marsh: section 2.10.3, table has error, should say "interface fault component"

Resolution: resolved


Marsh: sections 2.1.2, 2.2.1, contradiction between SHOULD and MUST
... believe it was indeed our intention

Resolution: resolved


section 2.4, example need better formatting

Resolution: resolved

Marsh: adjourn

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Bijan to contact WG to ask for contribution to test suite [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Hugo to send email describing sanjiva's 2 properties proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Marsh to forward nits to SPARQL [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Marsh to go send email asking for clarification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Tony to write up issues on I18N draft and email to WSD mailing-list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/20-ws-desc-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2005/10/20 16:29:45 $