W3C

WSDL WG Teleconference, 2004-05-06
6 May 2004

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Erik Ackerman - Lexmark
David Booth - W3C
Allen Brookes - Rogue Wave Software
Roberto Chinnici - Sun Microsystems
Glen Daniels - Sonic Software
Paul Downey - British Telecommunications
Youenn Fablet - Canon
Yaron Goland - BEA Systems
Amelia Lewis - TIBCO
Kevin Canyang Liu - SAP
Jonathan Marsh Chair (Microsoft)
Jeff Mischkinsky - Oracle
Jean-Jacques Moreau - Canon
Adi Sakala - IONA Technologies
Jerry Thrasher - Lexmark
William Vambenepe - Hewlett-Packard
Asir Vedamuthu - webMethods
Prasad Yendluri - webMethods
Regrets
Hugo Haas - W3C
Tom Jordahl - Macromedia
David Orchard - BEA Systems
Bijan Parsia - University of Maryland MIND Lab
Arthur Ryman - IBM
Sanjiva Weerawarana - IBM
Umit Yalcinalp - Oracle
Chair
Jonathan Marsh
Scribe
Asir Vedamuthu

Contents


Approval of minutes, April 22th and 29th

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/att-0085/22-ws-desc-irc.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/att-0088/040429-ws-desc-irc.htm

APPROVED: April 22nd and April 29th minutes

Review of Action items

<scribe> ACTION: Pauld to write up examples of schemas for the Primer (2004-01-08) [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Philippe and JMarsh will look at the ipr for test suite (2004-01-28) [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: DaveO to produce a refined proposal for Asynch HTTP binding addressing the concerns of folks that object to leaving replyTo info out of WSDL (2004-02-12) [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Marsh will get schema tf going (2004-04-01) [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Arthur to write up concerns about XML 1.1 implications on WSDL 2.0 for potential forwarding to XML WG (2004-04-29) [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Hugo to redraft DaveO's proposal for extensible HTTP operations (2004-04-29) [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Marsh to add an issue on describing the XML version of SOAP messages (2004-04-29) [DONE]

<scribe> ACTION: Umit to work with Anish to create a working draft on media types ready for our May F2F meeting in NYC (2004-04-29) [PENDING]

<scribe> ACTION: Part 1 editors to adopt Jacek's "purpose of the binding" text, without "interchangeable"endpoints, and using "confidentiality" (or similar) instead of TLS (2004-04-29) [PENDING]

Administrivia

Ugo Corda replaces Alan for See Beyond

Task Force Status

(skipped)

Issue 172: Syntax improvement for soap fault bindings

Issue, http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x172

(postponed)

Issue 54: Allow binding to any HTTP method

Latest proposal from Hugo (DaveO+Hugo's combined proposal), http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0093.html

(postponed)

HTTP Features review

marsh: should we walk thru from the top or discuss any one item in specific?
...is webdav useful to support?

youenn: how far do we support http features for webdav?

Yaron: how far do we support http features for webdav?

marsh: there are things that can be discovered @runtime, not sure how much of these would be useful in a wsdl description

glen: missed?

yaron: qname does not allow you to disambiguate, specifying redirect ends up being useful,

glen: address uri is the only thing that is used to disambiguate endpoints

yaron: may be using other pieces such as ws-addressing, don't want to go there tho'

<Marsh> <endpoint

<Marsh> name="xs:NCName"

<Marsh> binding="xs:QName" >

marsh: why would you like to know about re-direction via wsdl?

glen: what if my implementation does not support re-direction

dbooth: there are cases where you do not want to be re-directed

glen: I would say a ? on re-direction, not really useful
...status code and response status

marsh: anything not useful should not be considered .. lets consider useful vs. !useful

HTTP Version (DaveO=probably useful, glen=useful

Content coding (DaveO=probably useful, glen=useful

glen: may depend on the context

yaron: yes, they may change across time .. then its got to go thru the http negotiation .. cost is one round trip

marsh: but, what about the contract?
...what level are we describing?
...level 1 - that can go thru negotiation, level 2 for optimization, are there only 2 buckets
...what does it mean to describe in wsdl?

pauld: wsdl is a contract. If you change it, then you broke it

yaron: if you make a promise via wsdl, then don't violate it .. if you do then http offers a fall back

pauld: some of the items are useful to default, some of the items are required ..

dbooth: in the case of gzip, perhaps the contract should just say that it supports a certain version of HTTP, then it could withdraw support for gzip without violating its contract

glen: contract, but this is separate from the runtime message .. to some extent an implementation should be able to deal with these changes. it is useful if you do not violate the contract.

marsh: useful vs. !useful, optimization (hint), required features

HTTP Version (DaveO=probably useful glen=says 1.1 then 1.0 should be ok

dbooth: disagrees, that is a violation

HTTP Version in the optimization bucket

marsh: Transfer Codings (Chunked encoding) in the optimization bucket?
...summarizes that chunked encoding goes in the optimization bucket

<dbooth> If a service declares in its WSDL doc that it supports HTTP 1.1, then it must support HTTP 1.1. However, the client has the prerogative of speaking HTTP 1.0 to it, because HTTP 1.1 is backwards compatible with HTTP 1.0.

Authentication (DaveO=probably useful

yaron: required
...cookies, required .. if you don't support this then you cannot interact with me
...optimization in which parts of the message, should be able to declare it

moving thru the list

yaron: if you are doing caching, here are some useful things ..
...you may want to have a caching module to use it

marsh: caching is in the optional bucket

Content Negotiation (DaveO=probably useful

reading from daveo's e-mail .. probably useful in the MTOM context

marsh: sounds like optimization

yaron: in theory no .. a little on the bizarre side

marsh: how do I use it in the wsdl context

yaron: we should ask MTOM folks if they want to describe it at the http level
...there are lots of ways to serialize xml .. this is a way to declare a way to declare that support .. say, i am going to mark it in http

marsh: looks like an optimization, lets you to specify a default .. but, you are saying that this may be spelling out a requirement
...this one can go either way

Cookies (DaveO=probably useful

marsh: summarizes Arthur's position
...required=authentication, cookies, ssl - are there positions on whether we should describe them

(no answers ..)

jeff: can't find a reason why we should not

marsh: these are requirements for a client to talk with a server
...optimization bucket .. onto e-mail
...requirements & capabilities bucket .. soliciting volunteers
...we are looking for volunteers

(silence :-))

<scribe> ACTION: Marsh to draft David O or Hugo to write up a proposal for describing the requirement & capabilities bucket of http features (2004-05-06)

marsh: lets continue to review the list again and classify them

SOAP 1.2 Binding

Overall approach, http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl20/wsdl20-bindings.html#_soap_binding_syntax

marsh: any comments on JJM's proposed schema

yaron: message may have multiple media types, it is not clear ?

glen: not in SOAP 1.2 tho'

marsh: shall we remove media type from this proposal

jjm: have no problems with it

<pauld> Sanjiva + Roberto's alterations to the fault code descriptions ?

jjm: may be .. remove wsoap:header, perhaps should not appear in WSDL

<pauld> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004May/0001.html

<Zakim> Roberto, you wanted to comment on wsoap:header

roberto: comment on wsoap:header; don't quite understand why declare mustUnderstand, role,

glen: mustUnderstand is little weird
...you are saying .. target it at this role

yaron: app may depend on specific processing path, example logging, .. role is useful

jjm: mustUnderstand in conjunction with a role

roberto: why?

glen: walks thru an example, cache control intermediary
...more details ..

roberto: not too convinced, can live with it

(sliding into intermediary discussion ..)

glen: may designate parts of the proposal as pending further intermediary discussion

roberto: take them out until we discuss intermediary

marsh: summarizes

glen: features and properties are relavant to this discussion

marsh: schema will continue to have modules; ok for the editors to add them?

jjm: yes

glen: yes

marsh: happy to incorporate this proposal, remove media type, parts that are relevant to intermediary (mustUnderstand and relay)

<scribe> ACTION: JJM to incorporate this proposal (SOAP 1.2 Binding) after removing parts that are relevant to media type and intermediary (2004-05-06)

Issue 172: Syntax improvement for soap fault bindings

Issue, http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x172

Thread, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0081.html (sanjiva)

Roberto's amendment, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Apr/0081.html

yaron: likes sanjiva's proposal

asir: likes sanjiva's proposal, intuitive ..

marsh: lets take Roberto's amendment

roberto: willing to withdraw if there is no support
...lets go with sanjiva proposal and ..

DECISION: adopt Sanjiva's proposal

issue 172 is closed

Planning for next call and F2F

<dbooth> NYC F2F schedule: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/4/04-05-f2f.htm#Schedule

glen: talks about the F2F goals

marsh: close all of the issues in part 3
...once jjm's proposal is incorporated, then we may have more issues from the WG
...if we get thru part 3 issues, then we will go to part 1 issues, test deliverables, ..
...hope we have a clean part 3 draft for the wg to review

dbooth: we have a new charter that spells out schedule as the priority

yaron: we have made great progress ..

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: JJM to incorporate this proposal (SOAP 1.2 Binding) after
  removing parts that are relevant to media type and intermediary
  (2004-05-06)
[NEW] ACTION: Marsh to draft David O or Hugo to write up a proposal for
  describing the requirement & capabilities bucket of http features
  (2004-05-06)
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Arthur to write up concerns about XML 1.1 implications on
  WSDL 2.0 for potential forwarding to XML WG (2004-04-29)
[PENDING] ACTION: DaveO to produce a refined proposal for Asynch HTTP
  binding addressing the concerns of folks that object to leaving replyTo
  info out of WSDL (2004-02-12)
[PENDING] ACTION: Marsh will get schema tf going (2004-04-01)
[PENDING] ACTION: Part 1 editors to adopt Jacek's "purpose of the binding"
  text, without "interchangeable"endpoints, and using "confidentiality" (or
  similar) instead of TLS (2004-04-29)
[PENDING] ACTION: Philippe and JMarsh will look at the ipr for test suite
  (2004-01-28)
[PENDING] ACTION: Umit to work with Anish to create a working draft on media
  types ready for our May F2F meeting in NYC (2004-04-29)
 
[DONE] ACTION: Hugo to redraft DaveO's proposal for extensible HTTP
  operations (2004-04-29)
[DONE] ACTION: Marsh to add an issue on describing the XML version of SOAP
  messages (2004-04-29)
[DONE] ACTION: Pauld to write up examples of schemas for the Primer
  (2004-01-08)
 

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 1.79 (CVS log)
$Date: 2004/05/11 13:37:20 $