See also: IRC log
Present: David Booth W3C Allen Brookes Rogue Wave Roberto Chinnici Sun Microsystems Glen Daniels Sonic Software Paul Downey British Telecommunications Youenn Fablet Canon Yaron Goland BEA Systems Hugo Haas W3C Tom Jordahl Macromedia Jacek Kopecky Systinet Amelia Lewis TIBCO Jonathan Marsh Chair (Microsoft) Ingo Melzer DaimlerChrysler Jean-Jacques Moreau Canon Bijan Parsia University of Maryland MIND Lab Igor Sedukhin Computer Associates Asir Vedamuthu webMethods Sanjiva Weerawarana IBM Umit Yalcinalp Oracle Prasad Yendluri webMethods, Inc.
Arthur Ryman IBM William Vambenepe Hewlett-Packard Jerry Thrasher Lexmark
<JacekK> Jonathan, I'll have to leave in about an hour
<Scribe> minutes from joint meeting with XMLP WG approved
<Scribe> minutes from Cannes F2F approved
<Scribe> minutes from 11th March telecon approved
Marsh:
PENDING 2003-09-18: Marsh to review the QA operational
guidelines.
PENDING 2004-01-08: Pauld to write up examples of schemas for the
Primer.
PENDING 2004-01-28: Philippe and JMarsh will look at the ipr for
test suite.
PENDING 2004-01-30: DaveO to write up a proposal for augmenting
schema information to enable versioned data.
PENDING 2004-02-12: DaveO to produce a refined proposal for Asynch
HTTP binding addressing the concerns of folks
that object to leaving replyTo info out of WSDL.
DONE [.2] 2004-02-26: Editors to adopting the diff in Gudge's proposal
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Feb/0232.html
along with the two additional words to
Section 3.2. (#143)
DONE [.3] 2004-02-26: Editors to rename the message property to
"element" (#142).
DONE [.4] 2004-02-26: Editors to clarify wording (#122).
EDTODO 2004-03-04: Editors to add back the WSDL Component
Designators back to the spec as SHOULD.
DONE [.5] 2004-03-04: Editors to incorporate the above proposal to
issue 79.
DONE[.17] 2004-03-04: DBooth to propose specific changes needed for
processor conformance text.
DONE [.6] 2004-03-04: Primer Editors to include best practices and the
Schema group to review the best practices
language.
DONE[.15] 2004-03-05: Editors to clarify the spec to say that
required attribute means that a feature
must be understood and it must be engaged.
DONE[.15] 2004-03-05: Editors to clarify that the strongest value of
the required attribute wins.
DONE [.7] 2004-03-05: Editors to add clarification text with regards to
issue 121.
EDTODO 2004-03-05: Editors to write in the spec the wsdlLocation
global attribute proposal along what has been
done for xsi:schemaLocation.
DONE [.8] 2004-03-05: Editor to add optional Boolean "safe" attribute to
interface operation, corresponding property in
the component model.
PENDING 2004-03-05: DavidO to notify TAG about our decision on safety.
DONE [.8] 2004-03-05: Editors to further clarify the spec to make clear
that all operations must be bound.
DONE [.9] 2004-03-05: Editors to clarify the spec to say that its ok to
have bad imports but if during QName resolution
you can't find something then it fails like any
other qname resolution issue.
DONE[.14] 2004-03-05: Editors to update draft to say that include will
fail early.
DONE[.14] 2004-03-05: Editors to add text saying two imports with same
import/@targetNamespace is legal.
DONE [.9] 2004-03-05: Editors to clarify that if an optional extension
(i.e., an extension not marked as required) is
not understood it MUST be ignored. Any not
understood extension attributes MUST be ignored.
DONE 2004-03-05: Editors (namely Gudge and Roberto) to update the
schema and the spec accordingly.
DONE[.14] 2004-03-05: Editors to change spec to require absolute URIs
and indicate that comparison must be done
character-by-character as per TAG finding.
DONE 2004-03-05: Jonathan to send a note to XMLP, asking them for
volunteers for editors.
PENDING 2004-03-05: Editors of media type proposal to give Jonathan a
list of open issues.
PENDING 2004-03-11: Sanjiva to fill in data for May FTF on logistics
page.
DONE[.10] 2004-03-11: Editors to clarify 2.4.1 on why no global qname
reference to endpoints.
DONE[.11] 2004-03-11: JMarsh to find part of spec impacted by 115 and send
mail out to group.
PENDING 2004-03-11: JMarsh, David Booth, David Orchard to form adhoc
group to explore stylistic rendering options.
DONE[.14] 2004-03-11: Editors to change @name to @ref as found in email
Mar/0067.
DONE[.14] 2004-03-11: Editors to change @label to @messagelabel as
proposed by Sanjiva.
DONE[.12] 2004-03-11: Editors to add a {value} property to the Property
component.
DONE[.13] 2004-03-11: JMarsh to provide component model changes supporting
#any|#empty proposal.
DONE[.16] 2004-03-11: Jacek to propose resolution for issue 152,
Importing the targetNamespace.
[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0095.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0096.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0097.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0100.html
[.6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0105.html
[.7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0102.html
[.8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0104.html
[.9] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0144.html
[.10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0094.html
[.11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0106.html
[.12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2004Mar/0052.html
[.13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0073.html
[.14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0165.html
[.15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0171.html
[.16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0117.html
[.17] htp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0064.html
Yaron: WSDL depends upon retrieval of data. unhygenic methods of loading this data. publisher of a popular WSDL must be rich! proposal supports load balancing
Marsh: wonders how href works at all
Yaron: slashdot effect: if you're popular - you're dead!
Jacek: Web depends upon data retrieval - this is bigger than WSDL
Amy: + to Jacek. even parsers now have catalogue properties - including open source products widely distributed
<umit> +1 to Amy
Tom: +1 to Jacek and Amy
Sanjiva: nothing in our spec to restrict load-balancing ATM
<sanjiva> I also think that just allowing a list of URIs doesn't *really* solve this problem properly: all you've gone is gone from a list of length 1 to a another *finite* list. If the list is finite every problem you had before still exists.
Yaron: further explains load balancing and redundancy as posted to list - nasty performance for those at the top of the list of locations - DNS round-robin doesn't work well thanks to caching
<sanjiva> I'd like to request we do a straw poll and go on .. this is a small issue to spend so much time on.
Yaron: forces big-iron on those publishing popular WSDL
<asir> +1 to strawpoll
<GlenD> +1. There are lots of other small issues we could spend so much time on. :)
Jacek: suggests URI to actual location mapping possible outside of WSDL
<umit> I request a straw poll to see whether this is a problem we should solve
<sanjiva> I'm absolutely against making a new issue for this! We discussed this at the F2F and decided not to do it and I don't see why it should be dealt with now.
<sanjiva> (or in the future)
Marsh: do we want to track this as an issue: 1) return to issues list for later discussion or 2) drop this now
<GlenD> Let's see what the Last Call folks think.
<umit> +1 to Sanjiva
<GlenD> I am STRONGLY hoping that the soapbuilders community re-ignites into a flurry of good discussion and activity once our LC drafts come out.
<GlenD> Issues like this should be discussed there amongst the implementers as well as here amongst the standards-wonks. :)
<sanjiva> +1 for SOAPBuilders and others really giving this stuff a run thru and generating good last call comments.
<sanjiva> +1 to s/##/#/g
<Roberto> imagine the number of keystrokes you save!
<sanjiva> +1!
dbooth: +1
<sanjiva> ACTION: editors to implement David Booth's proposal on making all notes non-normative and moving the normative text into the regular paragraphs.
<Roberto> just do it!
Marsh: accepted Sanjiva's proposal
<sanjiva> ACTION: editors to make binding/operation/(input|output)/@messageLabel optional and have the same rules as the corresponding thing in interface/operation for computing the value.
Tom: this seems like overkill
<sanjiva> +1 for being overkill / hard to understand
Marsh: should possibly be baked into WSDL
<asir> +1 to more time
Sanjiva: wants more time to consider this
<GlenD> baking it into WSDL is certainly another option
Tom: use me as a litmus test for our target audience
Umit: no relationship on how this integrates into properties
Glen: correct: this is about how application data maps into headers - it's not a generic for spec writers
Umit: requests clear text for distinction
<TomJordahl> More specifically, I read the proposal twice and didn't really understand the mechanism and uses for it. This is a red flag as far as how our 'customers' might react to this complexity
<prasad> Add me to the list of don't understand. Need more time to digest..
<sanjiva> Sanjiva: it should be possible to indicate that there's more data flowing by using a new MEP with multiple input messages and then defining a binding for that which puts some of the messages in headers and some on the body.
Roberto: requests more time, worries about the levels of nesting, the validation requirements and the complexity therin
Marsh: sounds like we're not ready to deal with this - leave it on our issues list
Yaron: being forced to go down the F&P route introduced the complexity, wants his requirement addressed
<sanjiva> We can take a vote if necessary and see what the WG thinks ... I certainly will not vote for adopting this solution.
<Roberto> ditto, it needs improvement
Marsh: this is a controversial issue
Tom: we did go through this before Yaron joined the WG
Marsh: we need to move on to part 3 to meet our schedule.
Yaron: happy to work with whoever to progress this issue
Marsh: issue remains open
Jacek: proposes to close issue with no action
dbooth: suggest non-normative best practice text
<Scribe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0117.html
Tom: prefers to take action for a processor not to have to enforce the prohibition
Sanjiva: enforcement is a string comparison
otherwise we would have to state rules for how duplicates from the same namespace should be handledJacek: would like the 'class of processors' to fail on this
Marsh: seems like we need more complexity to allow this
dbooth: blanket statement processor must fault if encounters this
discussion on change in semantics regarding optional extensions<TomJordahl> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x115
<sanjiva> (probably)
Marsh: sounds like we have concensus
<Scribe> ACTION: editors to clarify the meaning of 'change' WRT to optional extensions
<dbooth> Proposed rewording for issue 115 sentence:
<dbooth> [[
<dbooth> The presence of an optional extensibility element or attribute MAY therefore augment the semantics of a WSDL document in ways that do not invalidate the existing semantics. However, the presence of a mandatory extensibility element MAY alter the semantics of a WSDL document in ways that invalidate the existing semantics.
<dbooth> Note: Authors of extensibility elements SHOULD avoid altering the existing semantics in ways that are likely to confuse users.
<dbooth> ]]
Asir: what is the value of message content model if other schema models used
Marsh: parallel for other schema languages but component model allows different schema models to do whatever they want
element attribute a bit confusing if element can point to nothingSanjiva: suggests using extensibility model to introduce better syntax
<asir> arthur's e-mail is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2004Mar/0113.html
Marsh: can't think of better name than "element" at this point, good enough for this draft, but could consider other names later
Tom: suggests element="none"
<asir> yeh, element="#none"
Robert: types system other than XML schema, always need to choose one of these three values, other type systems may not have an "element"
Roberto: content model property has no value indication you're not using XMLSchema, explicity allow property to have no value
Umit: our definition could be broken if we allowed this. suggests we should do this through extensibility understands use-case for empty messages, but "any" ?
<yaron> +1
Marsh: logging service, can send them whatever, header describes routing, but body could contain "any"
Umit: grave concerns there would be no schema to describe message
Sanjiva: element="none" makes sense, element="any" can be handled by extensibility
<prasad> +1 to Sanjiva's suggestion
<umit> +1 to Sanjivae
Yaron: where is the limit of extensibility ? we have a clear use-case of an intermediary, logging, time-stamp, encryption, etc.
<pdowney> +1 to Yaron!
<sanjiva> How about element=qname for a single element, element=#none, and body=#any?
Umit: grave concerns - this breaks all the good we have done!
Tom: speaks in support of this proposal, good use-case
<Scribe> straw poll: Jonathan's proposal element= none, qname or any
Marsh: 7 yes, 1 no, several abstains
Umit: objects
<sanjiva> ACTION: editors to incorporate Jonathan's proposal for issues 146 & 150 (with #empty changed to #none)
jjm: should be able to get something soon
<Scribe> group agrees to approve publication of a working drafts
Sanjiva: why discuss HTTP binding ahead of SOAP binding ?
Marsh: been more traffic on HTTP binding
jjm: has been looking at schema for SOAP binding