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RE: Top cloud in triangle/rectangle diagram

From: <jones@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:47:40 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <200210071747.NAA24572@bual.research.att.com>
To: Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com, kreger@us.ibm.com, www-ws-arch@w3.org

+1 to Igor and Heather.

There is no pure SOA without some service information being acquired
by the requestor.  To identify a case where it involves human agency,
prior business arrangement and SMTP is only to locate a particular
point in the continuum.  There are other real-world variants, even
more likely in my experience, in which the service provider explicitly
communicates URL's to the business partner at which WSDL and English
documents that further describe the service are to be found.  The
requestor then gets these documents by using HTTP rather than SMTP as
in David's example.  Should this suddenly take us from a 2-node
picture to a 3-node picture?  I think not.  We are in the same
triangluar, SOA, logical framework in all cases.


Mark Jones

	From www-ws-arch-request@w3.org Mon Oct  7 13:19 EDT 2002
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	From: Heather Kreger <kreger@us.ibm.com>
	Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 13:19:27 -0400
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	+1 Igor.

	In fact, the origional text submitted for the publish and find interactions
	include very broad interpretations of these interactions, inclusive of
	sneakernet, phone calls, and email attachments.

	David's scenario is valid and works fine. I don't see it 'breaking' the
	roles in the triangle.  I have always supported that the 'top cloud' (I
	missed our meeting and haven't caught up with my mail to find out if we
	have a new official name yet) role is not specifically required in every
	scenario and that roles may be collapsed.

	However, the  'top cloud' role is still essential to the SOA model.

	Heather Kreger
	Web Services Lead Architect
	STSM, SWG Emerging Technology
	919-543-3211 (t/l 441)  cell:919-496-9572

	"Sedukhin, Igor" <Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>@w3.org on 10/07/2002 11:49:09 AM

	Sent by:    www-ws-arch-request@w3.org

	To:    "David Booth" <dbooth@w3.org>, <www-ws-arch@w3.org>
	cc:    "Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler)" <RogerCutler@ChevronTexaco.com>
	Subject:    RE: Top cloud in triangle/rectangle diagram


	Here is my interpretation of the Roger's scenario [at

	The guy in Widgets-R-Us who picked up the phone and then received an e-mail
	with the WSDL did "Find" a service.
	The guy in FredCo who responded to the phone call and then e-mailed the
	WSDL, played a role of an "Advertizer".
	The other guy in FredCo who created a WSDL or otherwise told the
	"Advertizer" guy about the WSDL did "Publish" a service.

	I think the proper architectural roles were played well :).

	I hope I'm not trying to be difficult :), but I'd like to see a BASIC WS
	architecture that does not need the act of meeting two parties and
	therefore does not need those roles.

	-- Igor Sedukhin .. (igor.sedukhin@ca.com)
	-- (631) 342-4325 .. 1 CA Plaza, Islandia, NY 11788

	-----Original Message-----
	From: David Booth [mailto:dbooth@w3.org]
	Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 9:06 PM
	To: Sedukhin, Igor; www-ws-arch@w3.org
	Cc: Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler)
	Subject: RE: Top cloud in triangle/rectangle diagram

	At 05:53 PM 10/4/2002 -0400, Sedukhin, Igor wrote:
	>When a Service advertises itself to the Requestor, does it not play a
	>of an Advertiser? Roles can collapse into one compound role, but from the
	>logical point of view they are still atomically separate in the
	>So, it seems that Slide 4 [at
	>http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Oct/0062.html ] says
	>that roles of Service and Advertiser are collapsed, and if the right
	>circle said Service/Advertiser it would be very valid interpretation of
	>the triangle. I don't think there is a contradiction with the triangle and
	>three roles in it.

	Yes, I see what you mean.  You could describe it that way, but that's still
	assuming that the role of "Advertiser" is required as a significant
	architectural component.  It could be for a particular EXTENDED
	architecture, but I don't think it's needed or desirable for our BASIC
	architecture.  I think the scenario described in
	http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Oct/0072.html helps
	make this clearer.  (That scenario was actually inspired by the business
	need that Roger Cutler described at our last F2F, incidentally.)

	David Booth
	W3C Fellow / Hewlett-Packard
	Telephone: +1.617.253.1273
Received on Monday, 7 October 2002 13:48:16 UTC

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