RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence

michael 
good points,

well at least we are getting the traffic.

i will try to get a rewording on the goal,
the question here is how would that relate to the charter.
in a previous message it was stated that the goal was taken directly from
the charter

if we rewrite are we opening another can of worms ???

abbie


> -----Original Message-----
> From: michael.mahan@nokia.com [mailto:michael.mahan@nokia.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:11 PM
> To: Barbir, Abbie [CAR:1A00:EXCH]; anne@manes.net; VINOSKI@iona.com
> Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> Abbie, 
> 
> I think you hit upon the mechanism to get some traction on a 
> goal! I would like to comment
> on the below discussion. 
> 
> >Discussion -2:
> >-------------------
> >
> >I really do think that the requirement of platform 
> independence does contradict the above design goal.
> >In my view designing for platform independence must be 
> consistant with D-AG011. So in this regard, D-AG011 
> >can feed into D-AG004.
> 
> 
> I still have concerns about goal 4 versus goal 11. For convenience:
> 
> AG0004: "ensures platform independence of web services 
> components in a way that does not preclude 
> any programming model nor assume any particular mode of 
> communication between the individual 
> components"
> 
> AG0011: "is consistent with the existing web and its 
> heterogenous environment and distributed 
> architecture to the greatest extent possible"
> 
> 
> My comments:
> 
> 1. Goal AG0004 covers platform independence. How is this 
> different from heterogeneous 
> environment language of goal AG0011? I still believe these 
> are essentially 2 different wordings
> for the same thing. So, I too believe there is no 
> contradiction, just redundancy.
> 
> 2. I think the central theme/desire of goal 4 is independence 
> of programming models and independence of 
> communication modes. I think the goal is assuming that 
> platform independence helps acheive this. However,
> platform independence does not guarantee independent models 
> or communications. 
> 
> 3. Platform independence is essentially the same concept as 
> heterogeneous environment; and thus is a big 
> part of being 'consistent' with the existing web. Hence I 
> think AG0004 should be re-written to focus on 
> independent programming models and independent communications.
> 
> Mike Mahan, Nokia
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Abbie Barbir [mailto:abbieb@nortelnetworks.com]
> Sent: March 19, 2002 01:57 PM
> To: Anne Thomas Manes; Vinoski, Stephen
> Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> Please note that JAVA was used only as an example !!!!!!!
> 
> It is not the only way.
> 
> ps: AT least I am getting some traffic now, that is good ??????
> 
> abbie
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anne Thomas Manes [mailto:anne@manes.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 12:29 PM
> To: Barbir, Abbie [CAR:1A00:EXCH]; Vinoski, Stephen
> Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> I agree with Steve. I think that we need to avoid requiring 
> the details or object model of Java or any language.
> 
> Web services are platform independent and language 
> independent simply because we don't attempt to specify the 
> mappings between XML and language semantics.
> 
> All Web service specifications are defined using XML, and all 
> data types are specified as XML types. It's up to the 
> implementors to map those types to language types. For the 
> Java community, the JCP is defining standard type mappings as 
> part of JAX-RPC. Microsoft is defining the type mappings for 
> the .NET community. I recommend that we continue to let the 
> language communities define their own language type mappings.
> 
> Anne
> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:www-ws-arch-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Abbie Barbir
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:30 AM
> To: Vinoski, Stephen
> Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> steve,
> 
> this why the work like JAVA, as opposed just JAVA.
> 
> cheers
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vinoski, Stephen [mailto:VINOSKI@iona.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:28 AM
> To: Barbir, Abbie [CAR:1A00:EXCH]
> Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> Supporting heterogeneity requires supporting multiple 
> programming and scripting languages. Stating that we need to 
> "adopt the use of platform independent languages such as 
> Java" to help ensure that we allow for the use of multiple 
> programming models is a bit of an oxymoron. For true platform 
> and language independence, we must avoid requiring the 
> details or object model of Java or any other programming 
> language to "show through" at the Web Services level.
> 
> --steve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Abbie Barbir [mailto:abbieb@nortelnetworks.com]  
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 10:49 AM
> To: michael.mahan@nokia.com; Austin.D@ic.grainger.com
> Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org; Christopher Ferris
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> Mike and all,
> 
> Per the last teleconference call D-AG004 is still open and 
> must be closed by the next call.
> In this e-mail I attempt to close the issues regarding the 
> design Goal.
> The goal as stated 
> " 
> D-AG0004 
> ensures platform independence of web services components in a 
> way that does not preclude any programming model nor assume 
> any particular mode of communication between the individual 
> components 
> "
> In my original e-mail I have riased some issues regarding the 
> goal, but unfortunatly I did not get good track.
> 
> So here are my $.002,
> 
> Discussion:
> ------------------
> 
> In order to ensure platform independence, we need the following:
> 1. Adopt the use of platform independent languages such as JAVA. 
> 2. Have very well defined interfaces to web components that 
> are general and could be invoked using appropriate protocols.
> 3. Try to use XML and other markup techniques that ensures 
> the ability to invoke web components using variaty of protocols.
> 
> 
> The design goal can coexist with D-AG0003: is sufficiently 
> extensible and  with D-AG0005:provides simplicity and 
> ease-of-use that does not impose high barriers to entry for 
> users of web services. In my opnion, the appropriate designs 
> for platform independence interfaces can help the above two 
> stated golas.
> 
> 
> Furtheremore, Some issues were raised regarding the 
> interdependecne of D-AG004 and D-AG011. Here D-AG011 is restated:
> 
> CURRENT GOAL STATEMENT: 
> Web Services are consistent with the existing web and its 
> heterogenous environment and distributed architecture to the 
> greatest extent possible.
> 
> Discussion -2:
> -------------------
> 
> I really do think that the requirement of platform 
> independence does contradict the above design goal. In my 
> view designing for platform independence must be consistant 
> with D-AG011. So in this regard, D-AG011 can feed into D-AG004.
> 
> Crtitical Success Factors:
> ----------------------------------
> 
> The design goal can be achieved through the insistance on 
> using platform independent development tools and languages 
> such as XML and JAVA. The interfaces to web components must 
> also be properly designed.
> 
> Derived Requirements:
> --------------------------------
> 1. Consistent definition of web components
> 2. Good definition of web components Interfaces.
> 3. Use XML based protocols for invoking the web components.
> 
> 
> Current Recommendation:
> --------------------------------------
> The goal should stay as written
> 
> 
> cheers
> abbie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michael.mahan@nokia.com [mailto:michael.mahan@nokia.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:48 AM
> To: Austin.D@ic.grainger.com; Barbir, Abbie [CAR:1A00:EXCH]
> Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> Hi Abbie,
> 
> In message [1], I questioned whether platform independence 
> goal is separate from D-AG0011. Can you comment on that.
> 
> Thx, Mike
> 
> 
> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-arch/2002Mar/0181.html
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Austin, Daniel [mailto:Austin.D@ic.grainger.com]
> Sent: March 12, 2002 05:41 PM
> To: 'Abbie Barbir'
> Cc: 'www-ws-arch@w3.org'
> Subject: RE: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> Hi Abbie,
> 
>     The text of this goal was quoted directly from the group 
> charter, so we have to be careful about amending it. But I 
> think these are good questions. What are the answers?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> D-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Abbie Barbir [mailto:abbieb@nortelnetworks.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 1:19 PM
> To: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> Cc: Abbie Barbir
> Subject: D-AG004: Ensures platform independence
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This message kicks off discussion on goal 4, "ensures 
> platform independence of web services" 
> Please comment on goal wording, success factors, relation to 
> other goals, etc. 
> The goal as stated 
> " 
> D-AG0004 
> ensures platform independence of web services components in a 
> way that does not preclude any programming model nor assume 
> any particular mode of communication between the individual 
> components 
> " 
> Discussion: 
> -------------- 
> I think that the goal as stated provides a nobel idea that 
> software designers would like to comply with. However, it 
> seems to me that 
> 1. A proper definition of the term components must be 
> provided, where the line would be drawn on where and how the 
> platform idependence could be achieved.
> 2. In addition, does plateform independence means the 
> independence from the actual operating system and/or 
> programming language. 
> 3. In order to be able not to preclude any programming model, 
> what kind of interface do we assume for web services components?
> 4. In order not to assume any mode of communications between 
> the individual components, how would data be exchanged (if need be ?)
> 
> Other issues: 
> ------------- 
> 5. Is this redundant with D-AG0003: is sufficiently 
> extensible to allow for future evolution of technology and of 
> business goals 
>  when combined with D-AG0005:provides simplicity and 
> ease-of-use that does not impose high barriers to entry for 
> users of web services 
> Critical success factors 
> ------------------------ 
> How platform independence could be measured, verified and 
> achieved? and who will verify that? 
> cheers 
> abbie 
>