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Minutes of 07Nov WebOnt Telecon

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: 08 Nov 2002 15:09:03 -0600
To: www-webont-wg@w3.org
Message-Id: <1036789744.11401.12894.camel@dirk>
Lynne sent these to me and the chairs;
at a glance, I don't see any reason not
to pass them along to the WG.

Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/

Minutes of the November 7, 2002 Telecon

November 7, 2002

http://www.w3.org/2002/11/07-webont-irc (11/07/02 WebOntIRC Log)

Chair: 	Guus Schreiber
Scribe:	Lynne Thompson

1.	Administration (15 minutes)

1.1	Roll Call


Jeremy Carroll, Hewlett Packard Company 
Dan Connolly, W3C
Jos De Roo, Agfa-Gevaert N. V. 
Mike Dean (Invited Expert)
Larry Eshelman, Philips Electronics N.V
Jérôme Euzenat, INRIA
Pat Hayes (Invited Expert)
Jeff Heflin (Invited Expert)
James Hendler, University of Maryland 
Masahiro Hori, IBM Corporation 
Ian Horrocks, Network Inference 
Massimo Marchiori, W3C 
Libby Miller, University of Bristol 
Leo Obrst, MITRE 
Peter Patel-Schneider, Lucent Technologies 
Marwan Sabbouh, MITRE 
Guus Schreiber 
Michael Smith, Electronic Data System (EDS) 
John Stanton, Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) 
Lynne R. Thompson, Unisys Corporation 
Evan Wallace, National Institute of Standards and Technology
Christopher Welty, IBM Corporation 


Jonathan Borden (Invited Expert)
Tim Finin, University of Maryland 
Ziv Hellman, Unicorn Solutions Inc
Deborah McGuinness, Stanford University
Lynn Andrea Stein (Invited Expert)
Raphael Volz, Forschungszentrum Informatik (FZI)
Frank van Harmelen, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam

1.2	Approval of 10/31 Minutes

Minutes of the 10/31 telecon accepted with change noted in the 11/7 agenda.

1.3	Agenda Amendments


1.4	Telecon Schedule

Next telecon:  November 14, 2002 per regular schedule
Scribe:  Jeremy Caroll

1.5	Upcoming F2F Meetings

Massimo Marchiori has set up registration page. Registration is now open and link is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Nov/0010.html

Guus Schreiber received a reply on remote access arrangements for next F2F meeting from Deborah McGuinness.  

Per Ian, the list of possible hotels for the F2F meeting in Manchester is posted on the website.  The choice of hotel depends on cost and proximity to the computer science department and to the city.  Some of the hotels are Ibis and Novatel which are fairly new and relatively inexpensive; Princess Hotel is an old refurnished hotel and quite expensive.  Guus suggested to Ian to make one or two recommendations.

ACTION: Forward remote access request to Ian Horrocks next week (Guus)

2.	First WD Semantics Document (30-40 min)

Latest version: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Nov/0024.html

Peter's e-mail on the stance the semantics document take on open issues:

There were a couple of reviews of the semantics document already.  Reviews were very encouraging.  Per Peter, we need to consider whether the document is complete, if not, what are missing.  He noted that there is one substantive complain - the document does not have proof that OWL DL+ localization is equal to OWL Full.  He suggested to put in a proof sketch saying that OWL DL + localization has fewer entailments than OWL Full.  He recommended adding a pointer in the document indicating that "there something missing here".  

Dan argues that the decision to publish is most important.  A piece missing in the document is not a reason not to publish...The question is not "Is the document is complete?", but rather "Is it valuable to the audience?", "Is it going to confuse them?", "Is it going to cause more harm than good?". 

Peter and Dan agreed that they see no harm in publishing the document.  There is no reason to delay publication of document.  Jim Hendler suggested that the document be approved for release (with editorial changes).  The rest of the discussion should be on recommendations to Peter on stances on issues.

Per Guus, there is a moratorium to publish which begins Wednesday, 11/13.  It would be the last possible date that we can send the working draft to be published before the end of November.  He proposed that given the editorial comments discussed in today's telecon, we publish the document as the first semantics working draft before the beginning of the moratorium.  No objections were received.

3.	ISSUES (20-30 min)
Issue list:  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html

Issue 4.6 equivalentTo (Closed)

There is a proposal to close issue 4.6 from Peter Patel-Schneider, that is, keep the 3 statements in the language - sameClassAs, samePropertyAs, and sameIndividualAs.as well as whether equivalentTO is limited to same "type".  

Some objections to this proposal are noted in:

Jim made the formal amendment that we have an owl:sameAs that is a synonym for sameIndividualAs and in the document, we explain its typically used where they are different, or not known to be the same class.

Guus proposed to accept proposal from Peter with amendment that we add sameAs that is a synonym for sameIndividualAs with exactly the same semantics.  Jeremy, Leo, Ian, Chris W, Jos De Roo, and Peter abstained.  Issue 4.6 was resolved by consensus and in now closed. We will have owl: sameClassAs, samePropertyAs, SameIndividualAs and SameAs which is a synonym for sameIndividualAs.  The ref/guide documents will include a note that owl:sameAs is typically used when it is not known whether the types are the same. [from irnc log http://www.w3.org/2002/11/07-webont-irc]

Guus proposed that we rename differentIndiviudalFrom construct to differentFrom with exactly the same meaning.  Abstain: Peter, Leo, Ian, Mike S., Mike Dean, and Kevin.  Sufficient people are able to carry this resolution. 

Issue 5.5 - List Syntax or Semantics (Open)

Jeremy's message plus follow-up:

Jim suggested that the action to the chairs (Guus and Jim) be withdrawn.  The issue, if any, is not clear.  Dan opposed.  This action was reassigned to Dan Connolly.

ACTION:   5.5 list syntax or semantics in RDF CORE, Semantic Web Coordination (Dan Connolly) 

Issue 5.6 - imports (Open)

Jeff Heflin noted that the latest proposal to close Issue 5.6 could be found in:

There was a lengthy discussion on the issue, with no consensus from the working group. Guus took a straw poll.  There were two options on the table: (1) Jeff's proposal with amendments, and  (2) Postpone the resolution of the issue.  3 (Dan, Jim, and Pat) cannot live with Jeff's proposal. 6 (Jeff, Evan, Ian, Leo, Mike S., Peter) cannot live postponing this issue.

Pat volunteered to do the word crafting without modifying the real content of the proposal.  Wordsmith is not enough to change Jim and Dan's position on the issue.  In addition, Jim is getting more convinced that this is a band aid solution.  He would like to see "something that really isolates this issue...something that makes it much clearer that this is a limited mechanism". It might probably get him to change his mind.

It was clear that this issue will remain open for discussion.  Jim suggested that Peter take a stance with respect to this issue, write it up and make it very clear that it is still an open issue. Per Peter, there is a statement which reads as "This document provides an import directives and the abstract syntax in term of imports closure but the issue is still open for discussion with the working group".

Jim prefers a formal voting on the issue to give people more time to make up their minds. He suggested that the final wording be publish on the web, thereafter, vote online (e-mail or web-based). 

ACTION:  Reword Jeff's proposal (Pat Hayes)

Issue 5.9 - malformed D+O restrictions (Closed)

There is a proposal from Peter Patel-Schneider to close this issue.

Peter briefly summarized the content of his proposal.  There are two options if you have too many triples on one OWL restrictions: (1) In DMAL+OIL model theory, you form up all legal restrictions possible, and say that they are co-existensional, and (2) in Pat's proposal, the effect of such collections is to force the properties to be the same, and then to force co-extensionality.

Dan would like to amend the proposal with some clear instructions to the guide that says "Don't do that".  Dan was actioned to write up a few sentences for the guide.

Jim raised a point of clarification.  "The two options seem to be ok to most of us. But we should resolve something and close the issue."  Peter proposed the DAML+OIL way.

Guus proposed to resolve Issue 5.9 - malformed DAML+OIL restrictions with the 1st option in the proposal by Peter Patel-Schneider.  Resolution carried with Jim Hendler abstaining.

ACTION:  Write-up a few sentences for the guide (Dan Connolly)

Issue 5.19 - Classes as Instances (Closed, Open for discussion)

The action to move the issue forward and write up 1-d and 2-d views to make clearer to users was completed (Guus and Frank).

Dan requested a discussion on this issue.  WG discussion was not completed due to lack of time.

The following agenda items were not discussed in today's telecon due to time constraints:

Issue 4.3 - Structured Datatypes 

There is a proposal for Issue 4.3 from Jonathan Borden.  No discussion as Jonathan is not present at 11/7 telecon.

Issue 5.8 - datatypes

Issue 5.13 - internet media type for OWL

Issue 5.14 - Ontology versioning

Issue 5.17 - XML presentation syntax

Issue 5.18 - Unique names assumption
ACTION:  Dan Connolly to write up the 'all different' proposal for Issue 5.18.


Decision was made to release the documents before Wednesday, 11/13.  All editors of the documents are ready to release their documents.  Peter has some changes to make to the semantics document.  As soon as changes are made, he will forward document to Dan.  

5.	AOB
Received on Friday, 8 November 2002 16:08:28 UTC

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