RE: Tracking of pending media type/charset/URI registrations

I agree that what you propose (IESG track requests from other SDOs for MIME registrations; IANA link to IESG tracker) would be an improvement, and also that getting together at the next IETF meeting to talk about the broader issues around registries and their maintenance.  I'd want to see if we could actually bridge the gap between what the community needs and what we're currently providing between IANA, IESG, IETF, W3C, etc.

I raised some of the issues in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info, although the issues seem to also extend to link relations and other registered values that aren't MIME related.   

If the meeting were Sunday or Monday, we might get a couple of people who were here for the XML Prague meeting.

Larry

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexey Melnikov [mailto:alexey.melnikov@isode.com] 
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 11:10 AM
To: Larry Masinter
Cc: Michelle Cotton; Graham Klyne; Philippe Le Hégaret; Roy Fielding; www-tag@w3.org; iesg@ietf.org; Mark Nottingham
Subject: Re: Tracking of pending media type/charset/URI registrations

[Adding iesg@ietf.org and Mark Nottingham to my reply]

Michelle Cotton wrote:

>I have some ideas that need to be explored more.  I'm going to follow-up
>with Alexey and then perhaps we could have either a discussion on a call or
>at the Prague IETF meeting.
>
>(I believe Alexey is on vacation so we'll need to give him some time to
>respond)
>
>I look forward to working to finding the right solution for the IANA parts
>with you all.
>
>We want applying for registrations and tracking registrations to be
>beneficial to all parties with keeping to the registration procedures for
>each individual registry.
>
>I do think an agreed upon outcome can be found.
>  
>
Michelle and I talked and I think our conclusion that in many cases 
(e.g. MIME type registrations from other SDOs) are not visible to IANA 
until they are approved by IESG. For URIs, most (all?) registrations are 
specified in Internet-Drafts, so they are not visible to IESG or IANA 
till the document comes to IESG for review. At the moment I don't think 
we need to change IANA's processing of MIME type/URI registrations from 
other SDOs.

What I would like to suggest is as following: IESG starts tracking MIME 
type registration requests from other SDOs using wiki/trac used by IESG. 
This would be managed by the Area Director responsible for MIME type 
reviews (till the end of March 2011 that is going to be me). Michelle 
said that IANA can link to the trac/wiki web page on IANA's site.

 So please let me know ASAP if you think this is a good/bad idea.

Michelle and I also agreed that a wider group of people (most of the 
people CCed) should talk in Prague about
a) how current registration process works for MIME types/URIs/charsets
b) how we can improve transparency and whether any process and/or tool 
improvements are needed.

>--Michelle Cotton
>(on behalf of IANA)
>
>On 2/20/11 4:39 PM, "Larry Masinter" <masinter@adobe.com> wrote:
>  
>
>>(Moving cc from tag to public www-tag; noting that this is part of my tag
>>ACTION-531 "Write draft document on architectural good practice relating to
>>registries" taken at the last TAG face-to-face meeting):
>>
>>I believe that there are a number of voices  who would rather see MIME types,
>>URI schemes, charset declarations, link relationships, and other values now
>>defined as IANA registries instead be maintained in a Wiki (presumably one in
>>which they and everyone else have some editorial control), or by some
>>organization over which they feel like they have some control.
>>
>>In some cases, groups have 'routed around' the registries by proposing
>>protocols which reuse registered values with other meanings (using a "willful
>>violation").  In at least one case, a  W3C working groups felt that
>>establishing and managing an IANA registry  was inappropriate, and instead
>>started a W3C registry.
>>
>>I don't think the issue is solely a "web" or "W3C" issue, though. I ran into a
>>similar issue with 3GPP and the media feature registry when I was expert
>>reviewer for those values (used in SIP), which is why I'd like to see if there
>>was a more general IANA solution rather than a narrower W3C solution or an
>>even narrower HTML solution.
>>
>>I think this is as much a political/power issue than an operational process
>>one.  (I am reminded of the struggle for management of DNS root virtual real
>>estate.)
>>
>>The fact that the web is full of deployed products and services that happily
>>use unregistered values for  things without IANA entries leads me to believe
>>there is a problem which is broader than "transparency" or "education" or
>>"miscommunication".
>>
>>I'm wonderin if there is a hybrid approach, where preliminary values can be
>>documented in a Wiki or tracker or other mechanism, but that more open space
>>is also linked to a more "official" registry in which registered values have
>>undergone the review process originally designated for them, including expert
>>review or community consensus.
>>
>>Larry
>>--
>>http://larry.masinter.net
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Graham Klyne [mailto:GK-lists@ninebynine.org]
>>Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:42 AM
>>To: Larry Masinter
>>Cc: Michelle Cotton; Alexey Melnikov; Philippe Le Hégaret; Roy Fielding;
>>tag@w3.org
>>Subject: Re: Tracking of pending media type/charset/URI registrations
>>
>>Yes, I think improving transparency and disclosure (and timeliness) would be
>>positive.
>>
>>I know I'm sometimes a bit slow in responding to registration review requests
>>(on the order of weeks, not months), but I'm unaware of any case where a
>>provisional scheme registration has been prevented from proceeding reasonably
>>promptly.
>>
>>There was a case last year when I asked the requesting group to delay a
>>registration (ws:) because there was some live discussion about the choice of
>>scheme name, but I think I made it clear the request wasn't being blocked.
>>
>>I suspect, but have little evidence, that the perceived problems are a lack of
>>awareness of the lightweight procedure available for provisional registrations
>>(of URI schemes).
>>
>>Maybe a practical approach might be for any request to result in an immediate
>>"registration requested" or "pending" entry in the provisional registry, so
>>that 
>>people can see a quick response.  This has a disadvantage that each request
>>would result in additional IANA actions (one to post the request, then to
>>remove 
>>the "pending" flag.
>>
>>#g
>>--
>>
>>Larry Masinter wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>I don't think the problem is that IANA isn't doing the right thing,
>>>it's more that there is a gap between what IANA and IESG and expert
>>>reviewers are doing vs. what many in the community seem to want --
>>>a light-weight way of noting things that *should* be registered,
>>>an easy way of finding out about registration applications and
>>>expert reviewer comments, etc.
>>>
>>>I don't have the complete list of requirements and it may be premature
>>>to conclude what the solutions are, which is why I'd like to gather
>>>together.
>>>
>>>Some of the difficulties may be rooted in a power struggle, over
>>>"who is in charge", partially analogous  to the issues that arose
>>>over control of the top level domain in DNS: ownership of the
>>>right to change the definition of crucial registered values
>>>(the meaning of "text/html" or even "image/jpeg") might have
>>>some economic implications which support uncooperative behavior.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure it's possible to address those kinds of issues
>>>directly, but focusing on transparency and disclosure I hope
>>>can help reduce some of the friction.
>>>
>>>Larry
>>>--
>>>http://larry.masinter.net
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Michelle Cotton [mailto:michelle.cotton@icann.org]
>>>Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:39 PM
>>>To: Larry Masinter
>>>Cc: Alexey Melnikov; Philippe Le Hégaret; Graham Klyne; Roy Fielding;
>>>tag@w3.org
>>>Subject: Re: Tracking of pending media type/charset/URI registrations
>>>
>>>Thanks for the background Larry.  I would love to explore more if these were
>>>IANA delays or other delays.  We are working very hard to make the process
>>>as smooth as possible for obtaining registrations in IANA maintained
>>>registries.  There are some parts that are out of our control.
>>>
>>>I would love to work with all parties to make sure the procedures are clear
>>>and that the process will work for registries where there have been issues.
>>>If IANA ticket numbers can be provided, this will help us track down the
>>>requests on our end.
>>>
>>>I look forward to talking with you all.
>>>
>>>Thank you,
>>>
>>>--Michelle
>>>
>>>
>>>On 2/17/11 11:43 AM, "Larry Masinter" <masinter@adobe.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hi Michelle,
>>>>
>>>>Philippe Le Hégaret in W3C was looking at complaints that
>>>>W3C working groups have had about not slow responses on
>>>>registration requests. He had some examples of places where
>>>>a MIME registration was in progress for years, for example,
>>>>and W3C was maintaining their own list of registrations
>>>>applied for and status.
>>>>
>>>>So at a minimum I'd look at those cases and what the nature
>>>>of the complaints are. Philippe, can you review these with
>>>>Michelle?
>>>>
>>>>In particular, the HTML working group is wrestling over
>>>>a proposal to use or not use IANA for "link relations" because
>>>>of a perception that IANA didn't "work". There's a long
>>>>discussion of this in HTML working group, but maybe we could
>>>>get some of those participants to join the conversation.
>>>>
>>>>Secondly, I am looking at some of the information that is
>>>>either missing or wrong or not updated in MIME registries,
>>>>and I have an internet draft
>>>>  draft-masinter-mime-web-info
>>>>that I'm working on that catalogs some of the problems. In
>>>>some cases the registry needs updating, in some cases the process
>>>>needs to be more transparent.
>>>>
>>>>In the case of URI scheme registration, again, there is a gap
>>>>in time between "name observed in use" and "registration applied
>>>>for" which can be years, and another gap between "registration
>>>>applied for" and "registration accepted" which can take years,
>>>>and then after the registration is accepted, no process for
>>>>errata or even capturing expert reviewer comments.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, that's some background.
>>>>
>>>>Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Michelle Cotton [mailto:michelle.cotton@icann.org]
>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 10:53 AM
>>>>To: LMM@acm.org
>>>>Cc: Alexey Melnikov
>>>>Subject: Tracking of pending media type/charset/URI registrations
>>>>
>>>>Hello Larry,
>>>>
>>>>Alexey suggested checking with you regarding the topic you brought up with
>>>>him described below.
>>>>
>>>>I wanted to get a feel for what you are looking for and possible examples
>>>>where the current process didn't work before we explore options of how to do
>>>>things different.
>>>>
>>>>Can you provide me with some more information?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Michelle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------ Forwarded Message
>>>>From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
>>>>Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 09:03:23 -0800
>>>>To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
>>>>Subject: Management item: tracking of pending media type/charset/URI
>>>>registrations
>>>>
>>>>Dear Secretariat (BCCed),
>>>>Please add this management item to the February 17th telechat.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Alexey
>>>>
>>>>-------------
>>>>
>>>>IANA (and IESG),
>>>>
>>>>Larry Masinter suggested the following:
>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>I¹m wondering whether IANA might use a public tracker (or something like
>>>>it) to note pending registrations, reviewer comments, responses, and to
>>>>link the registration itself to the comments and replies. The tracker
>>>>could point to a mail archive if the responses were in an archived email
>>>>list where the archive was maintained as carefully as the registry itself.
>>>>
>>>>In general, we have situations where registrations don¹t quite meet the
>>>>criteria for the registry but, because the registered values are already
>>>>widely deployed, not putting them in the registry seems counter-productive.
>>>>
>>>>These issues apply to MIME types, charset registries and URI schemes.
>>>>---
>>>>
>>>>I am wondering if this can be done easily by IANA.
>>>>
>>>>I am also wondering if this is actually modifying IANA registration
>>>>processes for the corresponding registries.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>>
Best Regards,
Alexey

-- 
IETF Application Area Director, <http://www.ietf.org/iesg/members.html>
Internet Messaging Team Lead, <http://www.isode.com>
JID: same as my email address

Received on Saturday, 5 March 2011 20:36:52 UTC