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Minutes for 24 Feb 2011 TAG teleconference

From: Noah Mendelsohn <nrm@arcanedomain.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 11:47:02 -0500
Message-ID: <4D6E7486.9090704@arcanedomain.com>
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
Larry has prepared draft TAG telcon minutes for 24 Feb 2011, and I've 
checked them in at [1].  A text-only copy is provided below.

Noah

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/24-minutes


     [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                               Tag Weekly

24 Feb 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/24-agenda

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Peter Linss, Noah Mendelsohn, Ashok Malhotra, Larry Masinter,
           Jonathan Rees, Henry Thompson (briefly)

    Regrets
           Dan Appelquist, Tim Berners-Lee

    Chair
           Noah Mendelsohn

    Scribe
           Larry Masinter

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]convene
          2. [6]minutes
          3. [7]administrative items
          4. [8]Agenda 6. ISSUE-39 (rdfURIMeaning-39) & ISSUE-57
             (HttpRedirections-57) & ISSUE-14 (httpRange-14)
          5. [9]Update on Registries
          6. [10]IETF Meeting preparation
          7. [11]W3C web site on Architecture
      * [12]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <Larry> scribe: Larry Masinter

    <Larry> scribenick: Larry

    <plinss> jar: [13]http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim-SIP

      [13] http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim-SIP

    Noah: HT will join at 'top of hour'

convene

    Ashok regrets next week

minutes

    <NoahM> Jan 27 [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes

    <NoahM> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 27 January are approved
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/27-minutes

    <NoahM> Attendance list to be cleaned up by Noah

    Larry: note minutes 'present' list didn't get PLinss

    Noah: put off approval of F2F minutes

administrative items

    (short discussion of progress on filling TAG vacancy)

    Noah: John would like to put off discussing action-355 until next
    week (out sick)

Agenda 6. ISSUE-39 (rdfURIMeaning-39) & ISSUE-57 (HttpRedirections-57)
& ISSUE-14 (httpRange-14)

    <NoahM> 303 Status Code Redirections

    noah: Jonathan raised issue and he would like to have a discussion
    of which issue to track this under

    jar: The problem in general was discussed at F2F

    action-532?

    <trackbot> ACTION-532 -- Jonathan Rees to propose changes to status
    of issue-39 & issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H.
    Halpin's concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 -- due
    2011-02-21 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532

    jar: I am going to be doing a lot more work on this, and a lot more
    discussion, how should we track this

    noah: was discussed under HTTP semantics, F2F agenda didn't show
    this

    <jar> Larry: (1) how meaning is connected to URI (2) what mechanism
    to use

    <NoahM> ISSUE-14?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-14 -- What is the range of the HTTP dereference
    function? -- closed

    <trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14

    larry: there's a general problem ("how to associate meaning with a
    URI") and specific mechanisms ("303 Redirect") and the two are
    intertwined but...

    noah: some of this was raised under issue-14

    jar: Went back and read minutes of March 2002
    ... When Tim framed the problem, 'what is the range of HTTP
    dereference' was raised perhaps ironically
    ... Larry was right! The "real issue" was "How is meaning associated
    with a URI", and the "http range" issue was subsidiary to that

    Noah: I came into that discussion with a different view of
    "representation"
    ... I don't think it's fair to say that (broad range of views) were
    represented

    JAR: more interesting to look at what people want to do

    noah: prior discussion was under certain issues, we should reuse
    issue numbers for tracking

    jar: it is my preference to have a new issue

    <NoahM> LM: The general issue is how we associate "meaning" with
    URIs

    <jar> maybe new issue title - associating meaning with uris

    <NoahM> LM: tdb scheme then becomes a TAG topic as a possible
    mechanism

    <NoahM> LM: I meant the tdb/duri document as a contribution
    representing not necessarily the right mechanism, but at least an
    alternative mechanism

    lm: it may be that different mechanisms are appropriate at different
    times

    noah: .action jar to propose an issue page around topic 6 of 2/24/11
    tag meeting

    <NoahM> ACTION-532?

    <trackbot> ACTION-532 -- Jonathan Rees to propose changes to status
    of issue-39 & issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H.
    Halpin's concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 -- due
    2011-02-21 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/532

    <NoahM> close ACTION-532

    <trackbot> ACTION-532 Propose changes to status of issue-39 &
    issue-57, and perhaps opening new issue relating to H. Halpin's
    concerns about 200 responses Due: 2011-02-22 closed

    <NoahM> . ACTION Jonathan to create issue page relating to Harry
    Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses

    <NoahM> ACTION Jonathan to create issue page relating to Harry
    Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-534 - Create issue page relating to Harry
    Halpin's concerns about 200/303 responses [on Jonathan Rees - due
    2011-03-03].

Update on Registries

    action-531?

    <trackbot> ACTION-531 -- Larry Masinter to draft document on
    architectural good practice relating to registries -- due 2011-04-19
    -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/531

    noah: had a substantial discussion at F2F

    <noah> LM: I have discussed with application area directors and have
    engaged with Michelle Cotton who runs IANA

    LM: We discussed registration issues relating to MIME types, etc.
    Aim is to raise awareness, engage conversation. These are copied to
    www-tag list.
    ... There is important discussion to be had regarding both
    architecture and process

    <noah> I have read the emails.

    <noah> JAR: Read them, looks great. Kudos.

    <noah> AM: +1

    <noah> Note, minutes of F2F discussion of this are mislabeled under
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/10-minutes#item05

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/10-minutes#item05

    <scribe> ScribeNick: noah

IETF Meeting preparation

    Slides from Henry:
    [21]http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/iab_panel_2011.html

      [21] http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/iab_panel_2011.html

    AM: All the technical stuff is in the last slide. I'd like more
    meat.

    LM: Yes. The expectation is that this will be a technical talk.
    Feedback is to shift toward more technical. The intro stuff is fine
    as far as it goes.

    NM: Are we ready to flesh out the technical bits now?

    AM: Well there are bullets:

    * Use of URIs for identifying (parts of) application state

    * Rethinking privacy

    * Web Security as it becomes Application Security

    * Device APIs: the difficulty of distinguishing between protocol and
    API

    <Larry> ScribeNick: Larry

    ashok: "rethinking privacy" -- what is that supposed to cover?
    ... does that cover minimization? do not track?

    <noah> AM: Are we going into detail on privacy, e.g. minimization
    stuff, etc?

    AM: for example
    ... what is "web security becomes application security"

    <noah> LM: Let's take the privacy one. We're talking in the TAG
    about API minimization, so we could go into that.

    <noah> LM: Also missing is discussion of fragids and state.

    <noah> LM: Also talking about storage, and communication of
    application state.

    lm: there should be some slides on that

    noah: would like to have TAG discussion of #!

    am: I've been working on client-side state, and added some
    discussion of #!, i will check it in and we can talk about that in 2
    weeks

    larry: don't think it works with prague schedule

    noah: should schedule discussion of #! asap

    <noah> LM: Would you do a slide or two on client-side state
    handling?

    <noah> AM: Yes.

    lm: would you be willing to draft some slides on client-side state
    and #! ?

    <noah> ACTION-500 more or less done, just need to make sure Henry is
    registered.

    <noah> close ACTION-500

    <trackbot> ACTION-500 Coordinate about TAG participation in IETF/IAB
    panel at March 2011 IETF closed

    <noah> ACTION-517?

    <trackbot> ACTION-517 -- Larry Masinter to figure out what to say
    about scalability of access at IETF panel -- due 2011-02-15 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/517

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/517

    <noah> LM: I need help with ACTION-517. We've groaned about this
    one, how the W3C site gets overloaded.

    <noah> LM: This affects IETF use of URIs in datastructures as well
    as W3C ones.

    lm: I'd like someone else to help with action-517

    noah: don't think we can tell IETF we've solved it

    <noah> NM: I think there are issues at two levels. One is the level
    you said, which is that sites like W3C's and potentially IETF's get
    overloaded.

    <noah> NM: What's perhaps deeper is the fact that the specs for the
    Web-level protocols don't provide for any mandatory rate limiting or
    flow control.

    lm: asking Noah to generate slide "problem statement" + "directions"

    <noah> ACTION: Noah to draft IAB meeting slide on scalability
    issues. recorded in [23]http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc]

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-535 - Draft IAB meeting slide on
    scalability issues. [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-03-03].

    Larry: link 535 to action-517

    <noah> close ACTION-499

    <trackbot> ACTION-499 Prepare product description page for work on
    IETF presentation. closed

    <noah> LM: Part of the presentation should be, how do we want to
    work with IETF and IAB in the future.

    <noah> Noah hopes Henry will see that in the minutes of this telcon.

    <noah> LM: Noah, what should slide 8 say?

    <noah> LM: Example, there is an IAB document on protocol
    extensibilty. I thought it was interesting, and interestingly
    different from where we went with our own versioning discussion.

    <noah> Welcome Henry.

    noah: Larry's been working as human cross-reference, we should
    handle this more regularly

    <noah> LM: There is a liaison effort, but not TAG or IAB focused.

    noah: DanC used to be active in IETF/W3C coordination

    <noah> NM: Yeah, part of the way we used to cover that was with Dan
    Connolly's participation?

    <noah> LM: TAG meeting near IETF sometime?

    lm: joint phone call, etc?

    <noah> LM: When I look at what John Peterson's email was asking,
    it's primarily technical

    <noah> HT: Yes, but we agreed we needed some background as well.

    <noah> LM: Yes, agreed.

    lm: I think we can summarize our understanding of the problem, and
    note the kinds of solutions we're talking about

    <noah> LM: We spend a lot of time talking about semantics, URIs and
    meaning, etc. We aren't talking about that. Why not in this
    presentation?

    <noah> HT: Wasn't convinced they'd be interested, or stated
    differently, those who are interested there are already engaged
    (e.g. Mark Nottingham)

    <noah> LM: But I think it's important that they understand why we
    care, or why it might have impact.

    <noah> HT: Fair enough.

    <noah> LM: Frame as: we're not making random suggestions. Semantic
    Web is important for linking data and not just documents,
    understanding what data is about, etc. W3C is working on this, and
    IETF mostly isn't.

    <noah> LM: There may be some other things under the banner "things
    you should be glad we're working on"

    lm: When we tell HTTP we want some changes to specs, or want IANA to
    maintain stable URIs ... why do we care? What is this about?

    noah: applications link to documents; sometimes apps looks like
    apps, and sometimes apps look like documents that just are
    implemented as apps
    ... these things have architectural impact

    ht: need to go

W3C web site on Architecture

    action-381?

    <trackbot> ACTION-381 -- Jonathan Rees to spend 2 hours helping Ian
    with [24]http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/ -- due 2011-02-28 --
    OPEN

      [24] http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/

    <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381

      [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/381

    noah: we've had actions for 3-4 years and i'm nervous about
    scheduling this, it just seems like a bigger job

    [26]http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/

      [26] http://www.w3.org/standards/webarch/

    Lm: There is already a site, and an outline with 6 topics, of which
    only 1 is filled out

    <NoahM> Web Arch slices it as:

    <NoahM> * Identification

    <NoahM> * Interaction

    <NoahM> * Data Formats

    lm: it's already public

    jar: It's been a while since I've been able to see WebArch
    freshly.... the real work to be done here is presentation.

    noah: why do we use the word protocol when it uses the word
    interaction

    jar: that's the least of our worries

    noah: outline of webarch is not a bad outline

    jar: it isn't succeeding

    noah: it isn't widely read, but they are useful

    <jar> lm: ian's outline is there, can we just fix it up

    noah: I suggested, as a start, to change them to match webarch

    +1 to noah's suggestion

    noah: things like "meta-formats" might be higher level

    larry: you now have a suggestion on action-381

    noah: whoever does the work should look at best practices in
    webarch... are there any stories we should tell

    larry: don't recapitulate, just make pointers

    s/topic: web site/topic: web site action-381/

    <jar> this is helpful, recorded in minutes, i will review when i
    work on it

    adjourn

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Noah to draft IAB meeting slide on scalability issues.
    recorded in [27]http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc]

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-tagmem-irc

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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