Draft minutes of TAG telcon of 2011-01-13 available

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online at


and below.

- --------------
                                   - DRAFT -

                                  TAG telcon

13 Jan 2011


   See also: [3]IRC log


          Tim  Berners-Lee,  John Kemp, Yves Lafon, Ashok Malhotra, Larry
          Masinter, Noah Mendelsohn, Henry S. Thompson (in part)

          Peter Linss, Jonathan Rees

          Noah Mendelsohn

          Tim Berners-Lee, Henry S. Thompson


     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Approve last week's minutes
         2. [6]Repurposing the Hash Sign for the New Web
         3. [7]IETF Presentation
         4. [8]Pending Review Action Items
         5. [9]Overdue action items
         6. [10]AOB
     * [11]Summary of Action Items

   AM: regrets for next week

Approve last week's minutes

   NM: We have minutes from last week's call:

   <noah> [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/06-minutes

   <noah>    RESOLVED:    the    minutes    of    6    January   2011   (
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/06-minutes ) are approved

   AM: I have read the TAG draft status report
   ... looked ok

   NM: After a few days, can I take silence to be assent?

   <noah> RESOLVED: Noah to publish status report status report on 17 January
   if no objections are received in email, will update version of mime-web-info
   to 02

   NM: We need to plan the face-face meeting. Please help in the next 2-3weeks

   <Larry> new version of mime-web-info-02

   will give the "latest"

   LM: this should go in the report

Repurposing the Hash Sign for the New Web

   <noah> Draft is at:

   NM: The document seems much improved.
   ... The title of the finding needs to be rethought as it is not all about
   ... It needs to go further to actually give the reader a good sense of which
   technique to use.

   <Zakim> Larry, you wanted to talk about requirements for redefining "#" that
   I don't see identified

   LM: I am looking for some things in the document:
   ... I'd like to understand how it works for non-HTTP URI schemes.
   ... Is it only tied to HTTP?
   ... Also, how does it apply to fragids which are used with not Javascript,
   but active content?
   ... Particularly, more than the anaylis of HTTP and HTML -- how much applies
   to other situations

   AM: I would have to think about it
   ... it isn't obvious.

   NM: I did think the thing was funny as a TAG finding, as it mostly says look
   most of what I am describing here conflicts with the way the web works ..
   but your conclusion at the end is that [...]
   ... Not sure what the conclusion is as to whether this stuff is good to do
   and we should change the specs, or whether it should be discouraged -- in
   fact you seem to encourage it

   AM: There is a section on the non-conformance.

   <Larry> there's an analog with the mime-web-info document: identify the
   problems with current specs and recommend changes to specs so that practice
   & specs are not in conflict. I'd rather see this as "What has to change"
   rather than "who to liase with".

   NM: Yes, a nice part. Chap 3, "Rec best practices", leaves the implication
   that one should violate the RFC?

   [HST joins the call]

   AM: What I was hoping was talk about on the call was Chap 3 vs. the RFC
   ... since this is delicate

   NM: We'll do that next week, OK

   LM: I recommend we focus on what specs have to change
   ... how to get docs and practice into sync

   AM: A comment has come in wrt Media Fragment work, which I'll add to the doc
   ... And also JAR wanted to talk about the RDFa situation
   ... which likewise we'll add, but I need JAR's help

   NM: In Lyon, LM suggested that when we're working over a period of weeks on
   something, we should make clear exactly what the deliverable we have in view
   ... So we need, perhaps at the f2f, to get there wrt this work

   <Larry> Note that the draft-masinter-mime-web-info document also talks about
   fragment identifiers in MIME registrations

   <Larry> action-481?

   <trackbot> ACTION-481 -- Ashok Malhotra to update client-side state document
   with help from Raman Due: 2010-11-30 -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481

   NM: Let's keep using this action, and bump the date

IETF Presentation

   LM: I think we're too far away from something of interest
   ... I was more optimistic in November
   ... What would interest the IETF is the interaction between WebApps and
   Security, Privacy, . . ..
   ... We haven't gotten to that level
   ... To do organisational framing, more groundwork would be required before I
   would be ready to talk about this in Prague
   ... We should have a product, but making it be a presentation is the wrong
   ... The product we need is a definition of our relation with IETF, at the
   level of the relation between WebArch and InternetArch
   ... We're doing better than in the past in terms of coordination
   ... But w/o that larger context, driving the conversation up from the bottom
   with the WebApps topic
   ... doesn't work

   <ht> +1

   AM: I'm disappointed, without disagreeing

   TBL:  When we present TAG work, a T-shaped approach is OK -- broad and
   narrow, diving in in a few places

   <Larry> I think we need a 'product' but the product is a coordination of Web
   Architecture with Internet Architecture, and starting with Web Applications
   is OK, but I think the product needs to be larger

   TBL: mixtures of levels is OK

   <Larry> Perhaps a 12-slide talk of which web applications are the last 6...
   but need the first 6 too

   TBL: In this case, we could use WebApp as a dive-deep example

   LM: Yes, but I need the general part too!

   NM: Did you (LM) say that introducing the work of the TAG was too high
   level? Whereas TBL said that was OK if we drilled down in one case?
   ... I do understand that you think WebApp is not ready yet

   <Larry> tag/iab is in the context of W3C/IETF, which is in the context of

   NM: So I'm willing to close Larry's short-term actions, and open my action
   up to a larger goal, but TBL seemed to push back

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to put a different interp. on LM's point

   <Larry> Product is how we coordinate WebApps in TAG and "WebAPps in IAB" in
   the context of TAG and IAB in the context of W3C and IETF which is the
   context of Web and Internet.

   HT: I heard Larry differently. I think he took the goal of the presentation
   to be: engage the audience in joint work going forward. Without a degree of
   background having been established for divying, he wasn't ready to do that.
   ... I didn't hear that he was unhappy with "introduce the TAG", which was
   Noah's proposal.

   NM: Nope, it was what Noah heard of Tim's proposal

   LM:  There  are many levels at which we could approach the interaction
   ... All the way 'down' from InternetArch vs. WebArch
   ... through both organisational and technical divisions
   ... to WebApps as a specific topic
   ... Thinking about talking about WebApps as such w/o getting that set of
   levels at least a bit clearer doesn't feel right

   NM: What next?

   LM:  Your action (ACTION-499) enlarged to look at the InternetArch and
   WebArch makes sense to me, and I'll help with that
   ... ... and suspend ACTION-497 and ACTION-500

   NM: If that means no presentation in Prague, we need to tell Alexei that

   LM: I will tell him
   ... ... by next week

   NM: We could focus on this at the f2f, maybe turn the corner?

   LM: We could invite the relevant app area directors to call in to the f2f?

   NM: OK
   ... OK, we'll work together on a new, shinier 499
   ... you will bump 500 and talk to Alexei
   ... and we'll review the situation at the f2f

   <noah> close ACTION-497

   <trackbot> ACTION-497 Prepare us for a teleconference with IETF-IAB on
   possible prague IETF presentation. closed

Pending Review Action Items

   <noah> Pending review actions:

   <noah> close ACTION-464

   <trackbot> ACTION-464 Coordinate agenda for TAG/IETF meeting at TPAC closed

   <noah> close ACTION-468

   <trackbot> ACTION-468 Invite Thinh to telcon where Tim will be available to
   discuss "forbidding of hyperlinking" closed

   LM: Wrt ACTION-479, there is a new draft

   NM: So I need to schedule review -- next week, or longer?

   LM: Next week

   <noah> close ACTION-479

   <trackbot> ACTION-479 Ping Thomas again on Dec. Privacy workshop closed

   <noah> close ACTION-490

   <trackbot> ACTION-490 Noah and others(?) going to privacy workshop to report
   back to the TAG? closed

   <noah> close ACTION-494

   <trackbot> ACTION-494 Reach out to Device APIs chair to see about joint TAG
   session closed

   <noah> close ACTION-496

   <trackbot> ACTION-496 Update Guide to TAG participation on intent to set
   specific deliverables for each discussion closed

   <Larry> action-498?

   <trackbot> ACTION-498 -- Noah Mendelsohn to report results of HTML5 WG
   consideration of conformance for extensions (their ISSUE 140), get TAG to
   prepare change proposal if necessary -- due 2010-11-12 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/498

   <noah> close ACTION-498

   <trackbot>  ACTION-498  Report  results  of  HTML5 WG consideration of
   conformance for extensions (their ISSUE 140), get TAG to prepare change
   proposal if necessary closed

   <noah> close ACTION-503

   <trackbot> ACTION-503 Publicize to www-tag ietf-http-wg@w3.org & chairs
   health warning on secondary resourc redirection as resolved on 18 Nov 2010

Overdue action items

   <noah> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner

   <noah> ACTION-341?

   <trackbot> ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security
   review activities for HTML5 -- due 2010-11-15 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341

   <noah> ACTION-341 Due 2011-01-25

   <trackbot> ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities
   for HTML5 due date now 2011-01-25

   <Larry> note websec working group

   <noah> ACTION-404?

   <trackbot> ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership
   -- due 2011-02-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404

   LM: There is a new WebSec group at the IETF

   <Yves> [23]http://tools.ietf.org/wg/websec/charters

   LM:  If  there are security concerns wrt HTML5, those issues should be
   signalled to the WebSec group
   ... They are already looking at e.g. cross-site issues
   ... Good news wrt community cooperation, I think

   <noah> ACTION-475?

   <trackbot> ACTION-475 -- Ashok Malhotra to write finding on client-side
   storage, DanA to review -- due 2010-10-26 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/475

   <noah> ACTION-475 Due 2011-03-21

   <trackbot> ACTION-475 Write finding on client-side storage, DanA to review
   due date now 2011-03-21


   LM: I have started pushing the TDB and DURI documents again, and this has
   stimulated some discussion

   <Larry> [25]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-dated-uri

   NM: Do you want TAG involvement in this?

   LM: Asking if it's important for TAG to do

   LM: It's a stable document now

   HT: Unless the F2F schedule gets really full, I think this is worth one

   NM: How would you scope the session?

   HST: It's related to persistence
   ... and the health of the web

   <Zakim> ht, you wanted to ask for a report from TBL to be scheduled at some

   HST: I wanted to ask TBL to report, informally and at his convenience, on
   the progress of the XML-HTML initiative

   NM: I have in fact invited Norm Walsh to join us at the f2f, for just such a
   purpose, as he is chairing the group

   LM: RDFa is being rechartered

   LM: and since architecture recapitulates organizational structure
   ... should the new RDFa charter be broadened to cover metadata on the web?
   ... i.e. other kinds of embedded metadata

   <Larry> should RDFa charter include more about scope of media annotations,
   microdata, etc.

   <noah> Hmm. Seems that giving it such a broad remit could be a recipe for
   nothing getting done.

   <Larry> what is the API for accessing metadata, and more general

   TBL: A related issue has arisen, which is the RDFa WG is planning (?) to
   work on an RDFa API, and that might or might not be subsumed by/related to
   an RDF API

   <noah> ACTION-282?

   <trackbot>  ACTION-282 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a finding on metadata
   architecture. -- due 2011-04-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/282

   TBL: so the question of where that happens, and who drives it, as well as
   the technical question of the nature of the relation between the two (if
   there are two) APIs, probably need to be clarified before the charter is

   LM: I have another concern wrt registries, which I'll bring up on email

   LM: in the area of preferring URIs to registries, but there are still a lot
   of registries at IANA, and people are not happy with them
   ... Maybe worth framing as a TAG topic

   NM: We could have this as a f2f topic if you could help frame it.

   <noah> ACTION: Larry to send email framing TAG work on registries [recorded
   in [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-511 - Send email framing TAG work on registries
   [on Larry Masinter - due 2011-01-20].

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Larry to send email framing TAG work on registries [recorded
   in [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#action01]

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.135 ([30]CVS
    $Date: 2011/01/14 13:25:58 $


   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-agenda
   3. http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-tagmem-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#item04
   9. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#item05
  10. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#item06
  11. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#ActionSummary
  12. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/06-minutes
  13. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/06-minutes
  14. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-mime-web-info
  15. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/12/HashInURI-20101231.html
  16. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/481
  17. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
  18. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/498
  19. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
  20. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341
  21. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/websec/charter/
  22. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404
  23. http://tools.ietf.org/wg/websec/charters
  24. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/475
  25. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-masinter-dated-uri
  26. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/282
  27. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#action01
  28. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/01/13-minutes.html#action01
  29. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  30. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

- -- 
       Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
      10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
                Fax: (44) 131 651-1426, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk
                       URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
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Received on Friday, 14 January 2011 13:36:03 UTC