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Draft TAG minutes 2011-04-14

From: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:48:02 -0400
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=+vb_p93R19CN7Kt9GjbahNrJV7w@mail.gmail.com>
To: www-tag@w3.org
Draft minutes of the 2011-04-14 TAG teleconference are at

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/14-minutes.html

and in plain text below.

Best
Jonathan

--------------------------------------------------------------

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

      Technical Architecture Group Teleconference -- 14 Apr 2011

14 Apr 2011

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/14-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          plinss, Noah_Mendelsohn, Jonathan_Rees, Yves, ht, JeniT,
          Masinter, DKA, TimBL

   Regrets
          Ashok

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Jonathan Rees

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]Approve minutes
         3. [7]Administrative items
         4. [8]IETF meeting debrief
         5. [9]Hyperlinks and copyright
         6. [10]Overdue action items
     * [11]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

Convene

   <scribe> scribenick: jar_

   <scribe> scribe: Jonathan Rees

Approve minutes

   acclaim

   <noah> RESOLUTION: minutes of 31 March 2011
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/31-minutes are approved

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/31-minutes

Administrative items

   Question of whether to meet next week

   <ht> My participation on 28 April is uncertain

IETF meeting debrief

   Noah: So what were all the high level topics that were taken up?

   Henry's final slide deck is here:
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IAB_Prague_2011_slides.html

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/IAB_Prague_2011_slides.html

   These are what he presented from in Prague, except that he ended up
   skipping slides 16-20.

   ht: I need to remind people... at our F2F when I took this on, I
   didn't know how big this was.
   ... There were 800 or so people in the room, not the 50 I expected.
   ... There are intense undercurrents around what IETF means by
   "application"
   ... different opinions regarding relative importance of 'real time
   protocols' (e.g. SIP)
   ... I learned a lot in the 24 hours prior to the talk and
   significantly revised the slides
   ... IETF have been around for 30? years. 1000 people at meeting
   instead of 3000 formerly
   ... some people have been with IETF through their entire careers
   ... W3C doesn't necessarily loom large in the view of those involved
   in IETF
   ... For IETF, the main concern is physical architecture. Very hard
   edged, engineering viewpoint

   <noah> Yes, as I said often at the time the TAG was formed, the
   W3C's use of the word "architecture" confused me for many years.
   I've learned to get on with it, and what the TAG does is useful, but
   it's somewhat more informal than what I "grew up" learning as
   architecture.

   ht: not about best practices & guidelines (for the most part).
   ... For much of IETF's history, IAB ran the IETF - had authority.
   ... Mine was the first talk at the plenary event. I cut most of the
   examples, did talk about resource loading
   ... Added to the talk at request of chair: slides on HTML5 and the
   W3C Web platform idea
   ... The big question there was, is there no need for standards and
   protocols (sensu IETF) any more?
   ... Debate. Middle ground: yes, there will be more use of HTTP, but
   there will also be new protocols.

   <Yves> See [14]http://tools.ietf.org/search/bcp56

     [14] http://tools.ietf.org/search/bcp56

   <Yves> "On the use of HTTP as a Substrate"

   ht: Afterwards, a number of people from IAB said, yes our two groups
   should meet together some time
   ... calendaring nightmare of course.
   ... There's an IAB retreat coming up, potential for interaction
   there, maybe

   <Yves> [15]http://www.iab.org/about/members.html

     [15] http://www.iab.org/about/members.html

   ht: Jim Gettys says hi
   ... talked about buffer bloat

   masinter: Architecture in IETF is nuanced.
   ... The IAB was an inspiration when the TAG charter was written,
   with some talk about need to liaise

   <Larry> Jon Peterson

   <Larry> I'd encourage Noah to discuss with IAB chair possibility of
   a joint meeting

   <Larry> and also consider ongoing liaison

   <Larry> including reviewing of documents of mutual interest

   <Larry> e.g. IAB has a document on protocol extensibility, which
   reflects on versioning

   <Larry> Major topic [at meeting]: registries and IANA

   larry: There was a discussion including Mark Nottingham, Thomas
   Roessler, and IANA and application area directors re registries

   <Larry> Now there is a new mailing list, "Happy IANA"

   <Larry> and a wiki with problem & proposed solutions

   larry: hope we can resolve registries, mime type, etc. I need to
   remove administrative / process issues from my draft
   ... they can be fixed separately from technical content

   <Larry> this from draft-masinter-mime-web-info IETF internet draft i
   will remove administrative issues

   larry: e.g. fragment ids and magic numbers for sniffing are
   different from registration process tracking
   ... Some other webarch-related topics were discussed at the IETF
   meeting
   ... e.g. IRI
   ... short discussion of sniffing
   ... do not track header. Will anyone from the TAG be at the upcoming
   Princeton workshop?

   <DKA> [16]http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/

   <DKA> I won't be there.

   <timbl> I won't -- have been in previous ones but can't make that
   one

   <Larry> what i'm looking for and haven't seen is the threat analysis

   larry: I haven't seen a threat analysis of the do-not-track idea
   ... E.g. look at Paypal position paper - what are we trying to
   prevent? Use that as a way to evaluate any given proposal

   timbl: Privacy workshops have been going on for some time, [would be
   surprised if this hasn't been done]

   <Yves> DNT can't solve the issue of people not respecting rules,
   just limit the privacy leakage form sites with a good reputation

   noah: Are you concerned that this effort isn't well grounded in use
   cases?

   larry: Yes, afraid people are jumping into solutions without a clear
   understanding of the problem.

   timbl: Privacy has come to prominence recently, lots of papers and
   analysis, threat models... no comprehensive solution yet, but lots
   of prior work... doesn't look like a rush job to me

   noah: I assumed threat analysis was implicit, established

   <Yves> do-not-track is trusting good sites, api minimization is not
   trusting bad sites, so yes completely different approach and kind of
   solution

   <Larry> would like some way for TAG review Princeton workshop to see
   if there are TAG issues to address

   noah: Here's something we don't quite understanding. How important
   to find out?

   larry: Workshop is in Princeton in a couple of weeks. Would be good
   if someone went.

   <ht> Background doc. for the IAB panel at IETF-Prague:
   [17]http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-post-standardization
   -00

     [17] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-post-standardization-00

   Ashok wrote in email on March 4: "It's easy for me to drive to
   Princeton and those dates look open so far.

   So, I'll be happy to cover this for the TAG as long as I don't have
   to write a position paper"

   <noah>
   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Mar/0031.html

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Mar/0031.html

   <Larry> I think the mandate would be just to observe and come back
   with any architectural issues we might want to take up

   noah: Let's ask Ashok to attend.

   <Larry> look at long-term issues and maybe a post-mortem on P3P

   <ht> One of the authors is Jon Peterson, who a) chaired the panel
   and b) is on the IAB

   <ht> IAB membership: [19]http://www.iab.org/about/members.html

     [19] http://www.iab.org/about/members.html

   lm: [ask Ashok to] observe and come back with any architectural
   issues that come up

   <noah> . ACTION Ashok To report to TAG, after privacy workshop,
   regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to
   which "do not track" meets real use cases

   <noah> ACTION Ashok To report to TAG, after privacy workshop,
   regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to
   which "do not track" meets real use cases

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-545 - Report to TAG, after privacy
   workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially
   degree to which "do not track" meets real use cases [on Ashok
   Malhotra - due 2011-04-21].

   <Larry> rather than negative, look at positive: what other real use
   cases need additional privacy work?

   <Larry> "especially degree in which other work beyond DNT is needed"

   <noah> Report to TAG, after privacy workshop, regarding architecture
   issue on privacy and especially degree to which use cases beyond
   those addressed by "Do Not Track" need attention

   <noah> ACTION-545?

   <trackbot> ACTION-545 -- Ashok Malhotra to report to TAG, after
   privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and
   especially degree to which use cases beyond those addressed by "Do
   Not Track" need attention -- due 2011-04-21 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/545

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/545

   <Larry> [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/

   <noah> ACTION-545 Due 2011-05-03

   <trackbot> ACTION-545 Report to TAG, after privacy workshop,
   regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to
   which use cases beyond those addressed by "Do Not Track" need
   attention due date now 2011-05-03

   larry: Jim G has been tracking source of latency in net
   ... much of it is around excessive buffering

   <ht> IAB Chair situation: "Bernard Aboba replaced Olaf Kolkman, who
   stepped down"

   <timbl> [this is] below our level, but interesting in that it is one
   of the things we depend on.

   <Larry> "Buffer Bloat"

   noah: Sun WSs way back when had great [i.e. low] latency, due to
   fewer copy operations

   <noah> Excessive buffer copying has been a recurring implementation
   issue for 25 years. It's an important implementation issue.

   ht: Noah, this has nothing to do with Jim's work. Let's take it up
   over lunch

   timbl: It's about misconfiguring their routers...

   <timbl> Brian Carpenter used to say that network systems perf is
   just a question of round trips and times the data is copied.

   larry: and lots of other things too.

   <noah> Proposal: we're having a F2F in June. Should invite JG for
   lunch + a session?

   <timbl> That is is different.

   <timbl> It is below our level

   <noah> HT: At least lunch. May not be a TAG issue.

   <timbl> agree

   <timbl> Somebody Else's Problem (tm)

   <noah> ACTION: Noah to ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at
   June F2F Due 2011-05-15 [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-tagmem-irc]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-546 - Ask Jim Gettys about joining us for
   lunch at June F2F Due 2011-05-15 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due
   2011-04-21].

   <ht> Noah, please note: Bernard Aboba IAB Chair bernard_aboba AT
   hotmail.com

   larry: (missed) Thomas has taken it up. If other staff members etc.
   involved in IANA etc then ...

   <noah> thanks, ht

   larry: Another major topic at meeting: HTTPbis. Testing can start
   soon
   ... URNbis is also proceeding, has repeated that http: URIs aren't
   enough.

   <Larry> [23]https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/urnbis/charter/

     [23] https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/urnbis/charter/

   <noah> ACTION-542?

   <trackbot> ACTION-542 -- Larry Masinter to and Henry to report on
   IETF Meeting Due 2011-04-07 -- due 2011-03-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/542

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/542

   <noah> close ACTION-542

   <trackbot> ACTION-542 And Henry to report on IETF Meeting Due
   2011-04-07 closed

   <noah> ACTION-540?

   <trackbot> ACTION-540 -- Larry Masinter to try to arrange for Thomas
   Roessler to participate in the meeting about Registries at the IETF
   meeting in Prague -- due 2011-03-24 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/540

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/540

   <noah> ACTION-539?

   <trackbot> ACTION-539 -- Larry Masinter to liaise with Thomas
   Roessler about the registries issue background -- due 2011-03-24 --
   PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539

   <noah> LM: 539 is effectively with Thomas now.

   <noah> close ACTION-539?

   <Larry> yes, think it doesn't need TAG follow up

   <noah> ACTION-519?

   <trackbot> ACTION-519 -- Peter Linss to frame architectural
   opportunities relating to scalability of resource access -- due
   2011-04-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/519

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/519

   <Larry> that was a topic that Henry didn't have a chance to really
   go into it in depth, and maybe we should talk about with IAB

   <timbl> URNP 1.1

   ht: From the floor, Dave Crocker suggested, put them [the
   overfetched resources] in the DNS.

   <Larry> suggest Peter talk to Dave Crocker about Dave's idea

   <noah> ACTION-519 Due 2011-04-26

   <trackbot> ACTION-519 Frame architectural opportunities relating to
   scalability of resource access due date now 2011-04-26

   larry: In summary - I was pleased - there are great opportunities
   for coordination between IETF and W3C at architectural level

Hyperlinks and copyright

   <noah>
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html

   <DKA> Current draft here:
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html

   <noah> Maybe we want to say roughly what Larry is saying: I.e. give
   relatively narrow definitions of "cache", "archive", etc. then say:
   in actual Web systems, software makes copies sometimes for cacheing,
   sometimes for archiving, or sometimes for combinations of such
   reasons.

   <JeniT> I agree

   dka: Want to clarify re URIs and public identifiers even outside the
   context of linking...
   ... maybe Rigo's point is outside the scope of the document?

   <Larry> Caching and archiving are two examples of making copies of
   stuff you got from somewhere else, common elements of distributed
   system design. The web's contribution (around "404 not found")

   dka: Rigo said, if you use a namespace with a controversial
   name[space?], that's another use of a URI that could be a problem...

   Jeni: We're talking about the actual consequences of the URIs as
   links, not URIs as names in namespaces

   noah: We talked about what the TAG's role might be in this...
   settled on a terminology document as starting point?

   dka: Yes, that's what this is. Need some more iterations on the
   document. Aiming to say something that is not legal but might be
   relevant in legal (or whatever) discussions... not there yet

   <JeniT> no problem

   noah: Pls give some guidance for agenda preparation & scheduling
   ... Re German high court decision, do we need to talk about this?

   <noah> In particular, do I need to track any followup activity
   relating to it?

   <DKA> Jar: it would be useful to have a set of legal questions in
   the document.

   <noah> JAR: Thinking about this over the past week or two, how do we
   finesse legal/technical issues. It may be useful to have a set of
   legal questions that we have in mind. We can't speak to the
   questions themselves, but they are sort of use cases for us.

   <noah> JAR: Some of these are things that have yet to be decided by
   courts.

   <noah> NM: Though in the German case, Rigo pointed to a high court
   decision

   <Larry> are there "expert witness" technical statements from
   previous court cases over linking?

   [30]http://www.linksandlaw.com/

     [30] http://www.linksandlaw.com/

   <JeniT> OK

   <noah> ACTION-541?

   <trackbot> ACTION-541 -- Jeni Tennison to helped by DKA to produce a
   first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. -- due
   2011-04-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/541

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/541

   <noah> ACTION-541 Due 2011-04-26

   <trackbot> ACTION-541 Helped by DKA to produce a first draft of
   terminology about (deep-)linking etc. due date now 2011-04-26

   larry: mailing list discussion has been productive

Overdue action items

   <noah>
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owne
   r

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner

   <noah> ACTION-480?

   <trackbot> ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview
   document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of
   documents -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480

   <noah> ACTION-480 Due 2011-04-26

   <trackbot> ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web
   applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents due date now
   2011-04-26

   <noah> ACTION-537?

   <trackbot> ACTION-537 -- Daniel Appelquist to reach out to Web apps
   chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology,
   good practice) relating to interaction -- due 2011-04-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/537

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/537

   <noah> ACTION-537 Due 2011-04-26

   <trackbot> ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on
   framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating
   to interaction due date now 2011-04-26

   <noah> ACTION-514?

   <trackbot> ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API
   minimization Due: 2011-02-01 -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [35]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514

   dka: Re 514, not clear on what process to use to progress this
   document

   <DKA> [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html

   dka: need more material, review
   ... at F2F, I suggested this be a small document. Is it time to
   circulate it more widely?

   <noah> ACTION Dan to ask on www-tag and Web Apps mailing lists for
   advice on moving forward with
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-547 - Ask on www-tag and Web Apps mailing
   lists for advice on moving forward with
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html on Daniel
   Appelquist - due 2011-04-21].

     [38] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html

   <noah> ACTION-510?

   <trackbot> ACTION-510 -- Tim Berners-Lee to write a note conveying
   the TAG's concerns re: the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the
   HTML5 microdata draft Due: 2011-01-20 -- due 2011-03-09 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/510

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/510

   <noah> ACTION-510 Due 2011-04-26

   <trackbot> ACTION-510 Write a note conveying the TAG's concerns re:
   the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata draft Due:
   2011-01-20 due date now 2011-04-26

   <noah> ACTION-404?

   <trackbot> ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27
   rel-ownership -- due 2011-04-08 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [40]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404

   <noah> ACTION-404 Due 2011-04-26

   <trackbot> ACTION-404 Track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership due date
   now 2011-04-26

   <Larry> this action is tied to the IANA discussions

   <noah> ACTION-341?

   <trackbot> ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about
   security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-04-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341

     [41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341

   larry: Re the rel-ownership issue, check with Thomas and Mark N

   yves: need to move fast

   <noah> ACTION-341?

   <trackbot> ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about
   security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-04-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341

     [42] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341

   <noah> ACTION-341 Due 2011-05-10

   <trackbot> ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review
   activities for HTML5 due date now 2011-05-10

   <timbl> The URNP protocol may be used to dereference any URN. URNs
   are here the set of identifiers for which there exists no
   dereferencing protocol.

   <DKA> Larry can you post something on it to www-tag? I think it's
   worth generating some discussion on this issue.

   <DKA> I think "browser-centricity" is relevant to the question
   around packaging of web applications...

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at
   June F2F Due 2011-05-15 [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-tagmem-irc]

     [43] http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-tagmem-irc

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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