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Minutes of 22 January 2009 telcon available

From: David Orchard <orchard@pacificspirit.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:21:59 -0800
Message-ID: <2d509b1b0901291121v35190b1fqddc72ff31526858e@mail.gmail.com>
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
They are at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/22-minutes

And are in formatted text below

TAG Weekly 22 Jan 2009


See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-tagmem-irc>
Attendees PresentMasinter, jrees, Stuart, DanC, Norm, TimblRegretsTimBL,
Raman, Noah_(partial)ChairStuart Williams ScribeDavid Orchard, dorchard

   - Topics <http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/22-minutes.html#agenda>
      1. minutes <http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/22-minutes.html#item01>
      2. Issue 36 site (meta)
      3. self-describing web
      4. widgets, web apps
      5. WebApplications<http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/22-minutes.html#item05>
   - Summary of Action


  <Stuart> Scribe: David Orchard

<scribe> scribenick: dorchard

<scribe> scribe: dorchard

<scribe> scribenick: dorchard

<scribe> scribe: dorchard

<Stuart> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/15-minutes

minutes of 01/15 approved

<DanC> s,01/15,15 Jan,

Henry will scribe next week
Issue 36 site (meta) data

jar: I've looked at sitemeta and have a few comments

<Stuart> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-site-meta-00

<jrees> Eran's note: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hammer-discovery-00

zakim next agendum

jar: discovery has 3 components: header, link header, link
... it's out of scope what the descriptor is
... the rationale section was good and well justified.

<DanC> (I find "Appendix A.2. Analysis")

jar: small comments, like resource discovery -> resource descriptor
... what if you get different metadata through different methods.


jar: says you must produce the same description and location.

<DanC> (jar's comments, or at least some of them:

jar: a large class of additional languages might want an html link equiv

tbl: presumably you could put the html:link in another language.

jar: I agree

johnkemp: you can use any link header as long as it uses the link
... page 7 hammer-discovery-00

<masinter> the computation of the "base" of relative URIs is generic

<timbl> sorry pringingthe dco off

<timbl> doc

<masinter> style cascades

tbl: user can edit html doc, and would want multiple link headers

<masinter> someone is drying their hair

<masinter> much better

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask for a story involving real-world parties on

<timbl> Sorry, for the noise

<Ashok> In an example related to the identity space, an end-user can use a

<timbl> I would suggest as an alternative: if the rtwo resource descriptors

<DanC> (still too many pronouns)

<Zakim> jrees, you wanted to answer dan with story

<DanC> (the canonical openid story is: I want to comment on a blog item

jar: looked at openid in wikipedia. goal is to reduce the number of
... I still have to authenticate, but I use one string across the sites.

<DanC> (ecommerce is a bit of a stretch, given security properties of

<ht> Am I the only one who is confused as to why we are talking about

jar: we're talking openid because Dan wanted 1 story.
... rather than coming up with a new namespace, perhaps a person

<DanC> (using openid to find a public key... gee... you're not going to

jar: this can be used to find resource descriptors..

<masinter> there are no "name services" there are only "name lookup

I'll note there is a canonical mailto: URI to http URIs for openids.

masinter: people confuse name assignment with name lookup
... same problems with dns, oids, ....
... what people are really getting is a promise that there will be
... need to be clear about future service vs the name
... because the identity contains the scheme for how to get

<DanC> (I find it hard to get motivated to look into the technical details

masinter: Now we are asking what's the way to get the metadata about the
... There can be many different locations for the link or relations
... seems more likely that the different sources may have different

<Stuart> +1 to what Larry just said

tbl: do you mean different but not conflicting?
... this is all from the same site, the same dns name.
... stuff that comes demonstrably from the same source as the doc
... different sites may have different parts under different control
... they are different information

masinter: there is a spectrum from static to dynamic. for example

tbl: could also have something like subscription expiry

masinter: I wouldn't expect the spec to disallow conflicting

ashok: different users have different access to resources

<timbl> That's true: Anotehr reason for having different metdata reource

ashok: metadata spec has an example of where the metadata is inside the

<Zakim> jrees, you wanted to suggest that probably Eran wants to permit

jar: the specs are trying to do 1 thing and do it well.
... obviously people can get metadata from everywhere.
... this gives a way to communicate information about the name of
... is this sufficient such as different mechanisms? no. This
... to ask it to look into pdf is making it too complicated

ashok: both specs talk about revised versions coming out. Let's take

<Stuart> close action-202

<trackbot> ACTION-202 Review

<masinter> suggest a more definitive action, e.g., to encourage W3C review

<DanC> issue-36: note

<trackbot> ISSUE-36 Web site metadata improving on robots.txt, w3c/p3p and

<DanC> issue-36: <jrees> Eran's note:

<trackbot> ISSUE-36 Web site metadata improving on robots.txt, w3c/p3p and

<DanC> ("the mailing list that's talking about it" is which? I think it's

skw: there's been a general interest in web community, and semantic

(didn't eran set up a mailist list for the discovery??)

<DanC> (dunno, dorchard ; haven't followed eran's work much at all,

there's a discovery mailing list: metadata-discovery@googlegroups.com

on the discovery feedback, Eran said "Feedback would be highly

<DanC> ah. good.

skw: jar's next steps?

jar: comments to Eran, keep following
... I'm in conversation with lisa Dusseault(sp?) and mnot about 303s.

<masinter> Lisa Dusseault

<masinter> Dusseault

<masinter> sorry
self-describing web 61

<DanC> (I didn't manage to propose anything re squatting nor x-tokens, re

mark baker produced a branch draft, henry has commented on that

skw: have your comments been addressed henry?

ht: I don't think Noah has done the cleanup on the (g?)rddl example.
... should only take 30 seconds to fix the grddl example.

<noah_waltham> No, Mark did not produce a branch draft. I did, in response

ht: wrt noahs? (should be mark bakers?) I agree with the first part

<noah_waltham> Yes, I have agreed to do GRDDL cleanup, but it's not done

<noah_waltham> No, I'm not aware that Mark did a draft. I did.

<DanC> (ht's alternative, I suppose:

<noah_waltham> Henry is accepting first sentence of my branch draft change,

ht: if you are concerned with the xslt example, the problem is the

<DanC> DanC: the XSLT literal result issue isn't addressed, but maybe I'm

<masinter> RFC 3023 says " The W3C, and the W3C XML Core Working Group, have

<masinter> over the XML specification."

ht: there is an issue we haven't addressed which is that comments on

<timbl> Not as themselves?

dc: something might look like a check element but it's not

<masinter> Well, I was puzzled by the characterization of the "issue" was

ht: xslt ought to have a media type for when xslt is embedded inside xml

dc: self-describing web breaks down when....

<DanC> Vendor publiseshes po-template.xml

dc: vendor co publishes po template.xml

<DanC> as application/xml

<DanC> and the root element bears http://vencorco.example/po namespace

<DanC> and below the root it has XSLT goo

this is the same problem with documents that contain xinclude and is


vendorco has a place for extensions including xslt and example line

ht: purchase order contains minimum 4 tables, so template contains 4
... xslt wg didn't have a leg to stand on when they said it's not a

<masinter> the nature of the conversation confuses me; it's as if the TAG is

<jrees> danc: I don't think it's a critical bug to fix, but it would be nice

<noah_waltham> Please keep in mind that, while the finding surely has to be

<jrees> danc: content with no change

<Norm> The salient point here being the observation that XSLT template

danc: content because the root element must have the xslt version

<noah_waltham> Also: given that I won't be on the call for a few mins,
please keep

<DanC> +1 new para in

<jrees> there was a missing " ... i sent email to www-tag just now

<ht> Propose to ask the editor to publish after 1)

<ht> Fixing the GRDDL example;

<ht> 2) Adopting my proposed final para for 4.3.2

<DanC> +1 ammendment from jar

<DanC> +1 ammendment from jar

<jrees> 3) change the sentence containing "owl:sameAs" so that it uses an

<jrees> i want to give noah lots of freedom here

noah: I want less freedom not more. I'd like specific wordings

<jrees> ok, for less freedom, just use one of my suggestions.

jar: as proposed

dc: as proposed

<noah_waltham> The branch draft URI

noah: as proposed = with 3 changes?

<jrees> yes

noah: fine any way, as proposed is fine

norm: fine

skw: fine with 3 changes

tbl: concur

dc: tbl, please offer informed opinion

<DanC> (one of my hesitations is that I don't know what the "GRDDL example"

<masinter> if the question is whether to publish the document as a finding:

<noah_waltham> Proposal: we will publish SDW as proposed in

<jrees> noah, (as i said in recent email) please add missing " in 5.2

<noah_waltham> Noah will review final version with Henry.

<noah_waltham> Proposal: we will publish SDW as proposed in

skw: calling the question on noah's proposal

<noah_waltham> Proposal: we will publish SDW as proposed in

<DanC> Jan 19 23:03:23 2009 UTC is the date of

skw: any objections?

tbl: worried about the diagram?
... pathological the same.

noah: I think I got some help from Norm on the diagram sizing.

tbl: it's been made to fit but it doesn't quite work with the

noah: document denotes URI should go down

<DanC> (I can't read the diagram and wouldn't miss it if were gone, FWIW)

skw: I think I'm hearing an objection from tbl.

<noah_waltham> Proposal: we will publish SDW as proposed in

<noah_waltham> Norm: I will work on it.

<DanC> +1 Jan 19 23:03:23 2009 UTC draft + 4 changes

<ht> HST has to leave in a minute, I'm happy with the way this is going

<timbl> I can review it tomorrow at 10:00 ET

<noah_waltham> Norm: can you have a diagram by 1);00 ET tomorrow?

skw: calling the question on the latest proposal?

<noah_waltham> Norm: can you have a diagram by 10:00 ET tomorrow?

no objections

no abstentions

woot woot!

noah: thanks for the support over the past 18 months

<DanC> (I count the critical path at: norm, noah, ht)

no objections from TAG members

no abstentions from TAG members

<DanC> (the due part goes at the end)

<noah_waltham> *ACTION:* Noah to publish SDW finding, with 4 changes as
noted in [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-tagmem-irc]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-216 - Publish SDW finding, with 4 changes as noted
widgets, web apps wg

<DanC> "Cross-Origin Resource Sharing"

<timbl> Norm, get it in the middle

<timbl> 'deref' is the entry point

<DanC> "Cross-Origin Resource Sharing"

dc: tbl, you objected to "access control" so I took a follow up action.

tbl: that's much better

<DanC> close ACTION-203

<trackbot> ACTION-203 Discuss Access Control misnomer with Interaction

<masinter> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-abarth-origin-00

<masinter> was just published yesterday

<masinter> also http://webblaze.cs.berkeley.edu/2009/origin/origin.xml

<DanC> action-203: wg discussion of renaming spec includes

<trackbot> ACTION-203 Discuss Access Control misnomer with Interaction

<masinter> also

<Stuart> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Jan/0064

skw: I've been chatting with them about de-referencing resources
... no need to make references into widget packages.

<DanC> (sigh... I completely missed stuart's message, as it had an

<Stuart> FWIW, we have removed all requirements for Widgets to be

<Stuart> embeddable into Web documents. Widgets, as currently being defined

<Stuart> Widgets 1.0 Family of Specifications, are solely packaged

<Stuart> client-side applications that are authored using Web technologies.

<masinter> there's a mailing list on this topic at

<noah_waltham> Noah wants to remind himself that Jonathan sent an email on
22 Jan

<Zakim> timbl, you wanted to argue for allowing N of these and to

masinter: I proposed getting a bunch of groups together that are

skw: the mailing list is a venue for that discussion

<DanC> (I'm surprised Marcos agreed to talk requirements with other groups;

<DanC> (for reference:

<DanC> (I think a telcon might help a lot; these communities have

<johnk> dorchard: do you have a link to the blog entry?

<jrees> it's linked from my wiki page... i'll get that link

I suggest getting a wiki together and even a comparison

<johnk> thanks

<jrees> http://esw.w3.org/topic/FindingResourceDescriptions

I note that Eran's wor of doing a blog entry comparing various

<jrees> (or belowmentioned)

<DanC> ISSUE-20: Postel's law, dealing with invalid content, TInkerbell

<trackbot> ISSUE-20 What should specifications say about error handling?

Eran's blog post is

<Norm> timbl, after the call, can you hang about for a few minutes

meeting adjourned

<Norm> 2:30 meeting cancelled. I can finally get off the phone. Tea. I want

<DanC> ah... tea... yes...

tim, still some questions for you about your visit...
 Summary of Action Items *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Noah to publish SDW finding, with
4 changes as noted in [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/01/22-tagmem-irc]

[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 29 January 2009 19:22:38 UTC

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