- From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:27:48 -0600
- To: www-tag@w3.org
hypertext: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/12/13-tagmem-minutes
plain text:
[1]W3C . [2]TAG
[1] http://www.w3.org/
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/
TAG Weekly
13 Dec 2005
Attendees
Present
NDW, DanC, NM, VQ, HT, TimBL, DOrchard
Regrets
RF, Ed
Chair
VQ
Scribe
DanC
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Administrative: roll call, next teleconference, agenda
review, review of records
2. [5]Escaping the # mark in XQuery 1.0 and XPath 2.0
Functions and Operators
3. [6]issue NamespaceState-48
4. [7]Update on some issues
5. [8]IRIEverywhere-27 status check
6. [9]metadataInURI-31 status check
7. [10]Issue RDFinXHTML-35 status check
8. [11]Issue siteData-36 status check
9. [12]Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check
10. [13]Issue URIGoodPractice-40 and WSDL
* [14]Summary of Action Items
See also: [15]IRC log
_________________________________________________________
[15] http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-tagmem-irc
Administrative: roll call, next teleconference, agenda review, review
of records
at risk: Ed (hardware foo)
<scribe> Scribe: DanC
PROPOSED: to meet next 20 Dec
RESOLUTION: to meet next 20 Dec; NDW to scribe
<noah> The 20th is OK for me.
<noah> I'm unavailable on the 27th
PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Dec
RESOLUTION: to cancel 27 Dec 2005
considering... meet 3 Jan 2006?
<noah> i think i'm OK on the 3rd.
3 Dec looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec)
3 Jan 2006 looks likely (to be confirmed 20 Dec)
namespaceDocument-8 for next week
DC: remind me who has the ball on self-describing docs?
NDW: HT and I. I have started something
DC: note speech grammar spec has something relevant
VQ: re ftf minutes... Ed offered to edit day 1, before his laptop
went kerflewey...
... NM did part of day 2?
NM: yes; I'd particularly like review of the web service example
stuff, as I had to reconstruct it from memory
TBL: yes, I'd like help with the Tue AM stuff, NM, thanks
VQ: so can we approve next week?
HT: I think so; I'm in a position to help Ed
Escaping the # mark in XQuery 1.0 and XPath 2.0 Functions and Operators
VQ: see question from Ashok of XSL/XQuery and #...
-> [16]FW: Escaping the # mark
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Dec/0039.html
NDW: yes, I agree with Dan: the # should be escaped in
encode-for-uri()
... I'm inclined to link dan's msg to the XQuery bug entry, which
should move things along
TBL: no argument the other way? no dissent?
NDW: no, just a bug fix.
issue NamespaceState-48
NDW: I'm a little surprised that you approved before I finished my
actions, HT, but I have since completed them.
HT: I was mostly approving the good practice
NDW: recent changes are... * [missed] * things-change is the norm *
[missed]
<dorchard> you can never enter the same river twice...
<Norm> "As a general rule, resources on the web can and do change.
In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a
namespace is immutable."
[[ In the absence of an explicit statement, one cannot infer that a
namespace is immutable. ]]
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask about nsuri
<ht> Suggest to replace "in the namespace" with "in the namespace
named"
<Norm> Proposed: The proposed definition of a new local name
ā¤½idā¤ in the namespace identified identified by the namespace name
ā¤½[17]http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespaceā¤ (the xml: namespace)
raised a question about the identity of a namespace.
[17] http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
<Norm> Umh: The proposed definition of a new local name ā¤½idā¤ in
the namespace identified by the namespace name
ā¤½[18]http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespaceā¤ (the xml: namespace)
raised a question about the identity of a namespace.
[18] http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace
<timbl> xml:abc
[[Another perspective was that the xml: namespace consisted of all
possible local names and that only a finite (but flexible) number of
them are defined at any given point in time. ]]
(scribe missed a bunch... sorry...)
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to discuss the 'abc' example
NM: I see 3 positions: (a) namespaces have finite numbers of name
and are immutable (b) there are a finite number now, but tomorrow I
as NS owner may tell you that there are more (c) all local names in
every namespace
<ht> HST would have preferred for the crucial sentence "Adding a
defintiion for the local name "id" in the xml: namespace
demonstrates . . ."
DC: if namespace contain all the strings, then "Adding the local
name ā¤½idā¤ to the xml: namespace" is incoherent
<Norm> Much better, thank you ht
<DanC> yes, "adding a definition" is better.
TBL: doesn't appeal to me. People speak of adding things to
namespaces, and let's not say otherwise
<noah> I think I'm hearing Tim take my position (b); the members of
the namespace are at a given time only those that have been defined,
but the set can change over time
TBL: let's say "N is in ns I iff the owner of I has given N a
definition"
<timbl> It isn
<noah> Dan: that sounds right to me, or certainly very close
<Zakim> dorchard, you wanted to discuss the abc example.
<DanC> (I don't care a whole lot which terminology we pick, but
please let's pick.)
DO: this seems pretty abstract. If we pick the "add a definition to
namespace" versus "add a name + definition to namespace", no
software changes because of which option we pick.
<timbl> A namespace is a set of terms and their definitions.
DO: I can see either way...
NDW: speaking of definitions seems best...
DC: how about a gloss? ala: "people speaking of adding a name to a
namespace; we prefer to speak of adding definitions..."
TBL: that's pushing water up-hill. It seems to me that a namespace
is like a python dictionary: it's a mapping of terms to
meanings/definitions/values
<timbl> for term in { "sdf": gfooo, "sdf": bar }
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to talk about definitions
NDW: I think I can find a middle-ground, offline
NM: umm... "define"... that's one thing that we do, but take the
example of a C program...
<timbl> Nooah is very right here ... you can define a namespace as
an infinite set
NM: perhaps "license certain uses" is more general than define
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to noodle about "encourage use"; yeah...
<timbl> ... can be a function rather than a dictionary in python
terms.
<timbl> +1
some examples: all the prime numbers, all the lat/longs, all the
HTML terms with _ appended
<timbl> the sort of namespace any self-respectig self-describing
programmer would declare twice before breakfast.
<noah> My C language example was: let's make sure we don't have to
individually define the terms in a NS. e.g. I could say my NS has in
it all possible identifiers in any C program you can write.
<scribe> ACTION: NDW to revise namespaceState.html w.r.t. "in a
namespace" and "define" [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-tagmem-irc]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-tagmem-irc
<noah> I believe Tim's functional approach is a more formal way of
getting at the same thing.
Update on some issues
VQ: we didn't get to this at the ftf...
IRIEverywhere-27 status check
DC: I don't want to change its priority; I don't mind if we make
progress on it, but I don't want it to preempt self-describing
documents, versioning, etc.
HT: meanwhile, Bjoern seems to have made some very detailed points.
We'll need a "microscope" when we get to this
postscript: ACTION HT: with Norm to report the Namespaces/URI/IRI
discussion to XML Core from [20]21 Sep 05 was not reviewed.
[20] http://www.w3.org/2005/09/21-tagmem-minutes.html#action02
metadataInURI-31 status check
VQ: from Sep, action was on Roy and Noah...
ACTION: RF and Noah to make progress on metadataInURI-31 [21]21
Sep 05]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2005/09/21-tagmem-minutes.html#action03
NM: much of what I said in Sep was "most of this was before my time"
but somehow I ended up with the action
NM: I'm more swapped in on principle-of-least-power
... I'd need help from Roy... VQ: he's only around for another
month...
<noah> Noah feels he doesn't have the context on all the work that
happened on this before he joined the TAG.
<noah> Maybe or maybe not I'm the right person to carry this
forward, by myself or with help.
<noah> At the very least, I'd appreciate email reminding me of what
the progress to date has been and what remains to be done.
HT: this issue has come up in xml-dev recently, indirectly...
HT: somebody asked: is foo/bar any different from ?x=foo;y=bar , and
various people said yes/no/maybe...
HT: meanwhile, we have the case of the guy who got arrested for
typing ../../ into his browser... does the use of foo/bar imply
something about ../../ ?
... seems to raise some questions about opacity
... and there's this stuff with checksums in URIs, which seems to be
a counter-point to [?]
<DanC> (Jim Gettys wrote some good stuff on this... on relative URI
refs; I think it got stored in /DesignIssues/ )
TBL: The existence of something with URI /a/b/c/d does not give you
licence to conclude ANYTHING.
HT: ppl seem to believe otherwise
<timbl> 2. He didn't get arrested for making a valid URI, he got
arrested for doing something like
TBL: he didn't get arrested for just ../../ , but for using too many
..'s; that make an illegal URI
<timbl> GET /a/.../.../../..
<timbl> GET /a/.../.../../../etc/passwd
Issue RDFinXHTML-35 status check
VQ: I don't know anything about this one at all
DC: I have almost a finding on this...
-> [22]Storing Data in Documents: The Design History and Rationale
for GRDDL
[22] http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/specbg.html
<ht> [23]http://www.cdlib.org/inside/diglib/ark/arkcdl.pdf is an
interesting and well-thought-out design for a class of URIs which
include checksums in the URI. . .
[23] http://www.cdlib.org/inside/diglib/ark/arkcdl.pdf
<ht> ref. metadataInURI-31
DC: remains in my someday pile
Issue siteData-36 status check
-> [24]google sitemaps and some history of sitemaps [siteData-36]
Jun 2005
[24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Jun/0011
<timbl> ls-LR
<noah> Dan says: "wonder whether Google considered using RDF for
site maps". Now that we have GRDDL, might it be better to make the
goal be: whatever format you choose should yield truly useful RDF
when GRDDL'd.
<timbl> You can submit a Sitemap to Google in a number of formats:
TimBL: remember ls-LR? you put it at the top of your ftp site if you
didn't want archie to crawl it, and it made things faster
<timbl> Sitemap protocol, OAI-PMH, RSS, text
VQ: so it remains in the someday pile...
<timbl> Link rel=icon in Mozilla
<timbl> Possibel design Link rel=meta foo.rdf
<timbl> Link rel=sitedata /data.rdf
TBL seems to lament that nobody's working on siteData; DC suggest
TBL wish into a blog
Issue rdfURIMeaning-39 status check
VQ: anything new since Sep/EDI?
DC: seems nearby to self-describing documents, and to
abstractcompnentrefs; where is component designators, these days?
HT: component designators is not a top priority in the WG these days
"Last Call Ends 26 April 2005"
-- [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xmlschema-ref-20050329/
[25] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xmlschema-ref-20050329/
HT: yes, DC's comments are still outstanding
Issue URIGoodPractice-40 and WSDL
RF to draft something on URIGoodPractice-40 [26]21 Sep 05]
[26] http://www.w3.org/2005/09/21-tagmem-minutes.html#action08
VQ: any news since Feb?
NM: RF was going to contact DO a while ago... did that happen?
DO: no
DC: this came up in WSDL recently; I dissented to the WSDL design
that implies that the SPARQL interface URI ends in )
TBL: yes, the WSDL WG saw the desire to use foo#bar as just an RDF
thing...
... and without, e.g. a TAG decision, there isn't anything that says
flat namespaces and foo#bar is a good thing
... I get the impression that the WSDL WG didn't mind the long URIs
because they don't really use the URIs; they identify things in
context using other syntaxes
... maybe we should say "give things URIs, and use it!"
DO: we were asked to make URIs for all these things, and we follothe
WSDL WGd all the constraints that are established
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to say that you can't always expect people
to use URI's internally
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to draw the XML Schema ||
DO: the flat namespace option was one of the options brought to the
TAG ages ago, and the TAG said the () design is fine
TBL: really? I guess we blew it
HT: in RDF, there's one big domain, so it's natural to have one flat
namespace. In other domains, there's no basis for saying "you must
use a flat namespace" because their space isn't flat
<noah> Henry repeats my example of elements and attributes in XML,
which in turn leads to symbol spaces in schema.
<noah> I think that many programming languages have parallels: for
example, in Java, we do not insist that class names and member names
be distinct
TBL: the RDF space isn't flat either; there's all sorts of structure
to the classes in RDF, but RDF accepts the flat namespace constraint
<DanC>(XML and python are both in the web. and URIs have all sorts
of hierarchy like python's package systems)
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to say Noah and I said XML, not XML Schema!
TBL: the multiple-symbols-space aspect of the XML Schema design is
really sub-optimal
<DanC>yes, that was a bug.
<ht> The _only_ think we ever discussed was saying you couldn't name
a type with the same name as an element
<ht> We _never_ considered not allowing you to name elements and
attributes with the same local name
right, but we discussed schema languages that just had one flat
namespace per schema; if you wanted a element and attribute with the
same name, only one of them would get a #foo name
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to agree with Tim about the origin of all
this
HT: yes, it's the contextualized names/references that is the root
of this stuff
VQ: lacking near-term actions...
HT: I'm very interested in this design space, and I intend to write,
in some context, something on the value of multiple symbol spaces
<DanC>(tim, I think the issues are only connected if you take the
"flat namespaces are good" position. Which I do)
ADJOURN.
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: NDW to revise namespaceState.html w.r.t. "in a
namespace" and "define" [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-tagmem-irc]
[27] http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-tagmem-irc
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
DanC, scribe, for VQ, chair
$Revision: 1.1 $ of $Date: 2005/12/14 15:25:41 $
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [28]scribe.perl version 1.127
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--
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541 0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E
Received on Wednesday, 14 December 2005 16:02:31 UTC