- From: Ian B. Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 08:51:44 -0500
- To: www-tag@w3.org
- Message-Id: <1070373104.14221.8.camel@seabright>
Hello,
Minutes of the TAG's 1 Dec teleconf are available as
HTML [1] and as text below.
_ Ian
[1] http://www.w3.org/2003/12/01-tag-summary.html
=======================================================================
Minutes of 1 December 2003 TAG teleconference
1. Administrative
1. Roll call: DC (Chair), SW, TBL, CL, DO, PC, RF, TB, IJ. Regrets:
NW.
2. Accepted the minutes of the [9]15-17 Nov ftf meeting
3. Accepted the minutes of the [10]24 Nov teleconf
4. Accepted this [11]agenda
5. Next meeting: 4 Dec 2003 teleconf at 8am PT / 11am ET. Review
issues to close before last call.
6. Video meeting in Feb 2003:
1. Action SW/PC 2003/11/10: Explore possibility of TAG videolink
TAG distributed meeting in February.
7. Tech Plenary
1. Completed action SW 2003/11/15: Take to tech plenary
committee the TAG's proposal..
SW: I haven't received a response from the committee yet
(since they have yet to meet).
8. Negotiations with WGs for last call:
1. SW/I18N done
2. Schema/PC done. MSM has confirmed.
3. SVG/CL done. CL has confirmed.
4. HTML/IJ done
5. Todo: Voice/SW, XML Core/NW, WSDL/DO
[9] http://www.w3.org/2003/12/15-tag-summary.html
[10] http://www.w3.org/2003/11/24-tag-summary.html
[11] http://www.w3.org/2003/12/24-tag.html
2. Technical (75min)
1. Review of Architecture Document writing assignments
2.1 Review of Architecture Document writing assignments
Comments on [12]28 Nov 2003 WD of the Arch Doc?
[12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/webarch-20031128/
Recent action items:
Ian
1. Withdrawn action IJ 2003/10/08: Starting from DO's diagram,
create a diagram where the relationships and terms are linked
back to the context where defined. Ensure that the
relationships are in fact used in the narrative; any gaps
identified? With DO, work on term relationship diagram.
2. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Add a column to the TAG
issues list about the version of the document in which we are
expecting to address the issue.
3. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Provide wording to replace
text in 1.1.2 about relation between arch doc and findings
(w.r.t. good practice notes).
4. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Revise SVG story in
discussion with TBL.
5. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Incorporate TBL and DC text
into 3.4.
6. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Fix ref to 30 at end of
section 4.2
7. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Fix para after 1./2. bullets
in 4.3 to make clear that language must prepare in advance
(i.e., syntax) for this type of override.
8. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Write caveat about
integration formats like FO
9. Action IJ 2003/11/15: Close issue 6 with TB proposed text.
(Done) Inform reviewer. (Not done)
10. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: In 4.6.4, amend story to talk
about the choice of extensibility model and namespace policy
how that helps them meet their desired goals (easy changes,
less cost). Tie namespace change more strongly to
extensibility model with a cross reference.
11. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: In section 4.6.6, add refs to
infoset and PSVI.
12. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Ensure that pointed to from
issues list.
13. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Add new issue regarding
derived resources.
14. Completed action IJ 2003/11/15: Add new issue
ultimateQuestion-42.
Chris
1. Completed action CL 2003/07/21: Discuss and propose improved
wording of language regarding SVG spec in bulleted list in
2.5.1. ([13]Done)
2. Completed action CL 2003/11/15: Propose a sentence for 4.4
about delivery context.
3. Action CL 2003/11/15: Write text to reviewer about the
resolution of errorHandling-20.
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Nov/0052.html
Norm
1. Completed action NW 2003/10/08: Revise QName finding. See
[14]draft finding from NW.
2. Completed Action NW 2003/11/15: Provide language on
cost/benefit trade-off of extensibility.
3. Completed Action NW/IJ 2003/11/15: Rewrite 4.6.2. Revise
first GPN per TB text. Second one ok. Take language from
finding to give more context.
[14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/qnameids-2003-11-03
TB
1. Completed action TB: Rewrite paragraph on ambiguity in
section 2.2.
Roy
1. Action RF 2003/10/08: Explain "identifies" in RFC 2396.
RF: The current draft expires this week...I'd better do
it...please continue.
DO
1. Completed Action DO/TBL 2003/11/15: Produce new text for a
small subsection 1.2.4 (or perhaps for 1.2.1)
[TBL not satisfied with how text incorporated; see below]
2. Action DO 2003/11/15: Point WSDL WG to resolution of issue 6.
3. Action DO 2003/11/15: Propose some extra text for section 4.5
that hypertext agents often follow an IGNORE rule and this
often results in incompatible behavior. Ignore applied to
fragid interpretation.
MOVE TO ISSUES LIST.
TBL
1. Action TBL 2003/07/14: Suggest changes to section about
extensibility related to "when to tunnel".
MOVE TO ISSUES LIST.
DC
1. Withdrawn Action DC 2003/07/21: Propose language for section
2.8.5 showing examples of freenet and other systems.
Progress; see [15]URISchemes/freenet
2. Completed action DC 2003/11/15: Elaborate on value of
orthogonality of specs in section 1.2.1 including example
HTTP/HTML
3. Completed action DC 2003/11/15: Write up some replacement
text for text at beginning of 3.3.1.
4. Action DC 2003/11/15: Follow up on KeepPOSTRecords with Janet
Daly on how to raise awareness of this point (which is in
CUAP).
[15] http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriSchemes_2ffreenet
SW
1. Action SW 2003/11/15: Verify that "agent" is used
consistently in the document and makes sense as both people
and software. [Subsumed by IJ?]
TBray: Better than it used to be.
IJ: I agree with TB.
SW: Please continue my action 1.
2. Completed action SW 2003/11/15: Provide photo of
extensibility/versioning whiteboard notes for the meeting
record ([16]Done)
Action IJ: Link to SW's photos from 15 Nov ftf meeting
minutes
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Nov/0074.html
Walkthrough of Tim Bray review of 28 Nov draft
[17]TB review comments
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Nov/0076.html
[Ian]
1.2.1. Orthogonal Specifications
TBray: CL and I had some back and forth on this.
[Chris]
and http-equiv="refresh now"
[Ian]
TBray: I like the motherhood and apple pie language before the
bulleted list.
[TBray]
" The HTML specification allows content providers to instruct
HTTP servers to build response headers from META element
instances. This is a clear abstraction violation; the developer
community deserves to be able to find all HTTP headers from the
HTTP specification (including any associated extension
registries and specification updates per IETF process).
Furthermore, this design has led to confusion in user agent
development. The HTML specification state
[Ian]
TBray: I think the first sentence needs rephrasing. The HTML
spec supplements HTTP servers.
CL: In fact, the HTML spec is an instruction for HTTP servers,
which is universally ignored. That's evidence of a problem
having arisen.
TBray: Perhaps a bit of phrasing "This doesn't work in deployed
servers as specified!"
[TBray]
3rd bullet: " Some authors use the META/http-equiv approach to
declare the character encoding scheme of an HTML document. By
design, this is a hint that an HTTP server should emit a
corresponding "Content-Type" header field. In practice, the use
of the hint in servers is not widely deployed and many user
agents peek inside the HTML document in preference to the
"Content-Type" header field. This works against the principle
of authoritative representation m
[Ian]
Action IJ: Salt this text to taste to emphasize that problems
have arisen.
[DanC]
emph " servers is not widely deployed "
[Ian]
RF: There are servers that implement it, FYI. [Some] Content
management systems do this.
[Chris]
content magagement systems, and the discontinued GN server
yes, i agree that a sentence of introduction would be helpful
[Ian]
TBL: The gist is missing: It's not just enough to make an
extension language, you also need to make it so that not only
old documents members of the new language, but also that new
docs, without much damage, can be interpreted in the old
language. Ok that extension is inverse of subset. Missing text
is that you need to ensure that a doc in the extension language
can be interpreted in the old language with predictable
results.
[Roy]
"second" and "first" is ambiguous
[Ian]
TBL: Should be in para about "Language extension".
[DanC]
I note "we", the TAG decided on whatever timbl, daveo, and Ian
agree to.
[Ian]
TBL/DO's text came from:
[18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/webarch-20031111/tim
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/webarch-20031111/tim
[timbl]
"Clearly, an extension language is better than an incompatible
language, but in practice greater compatability is needed.
Ideally, an instance of the superset language, in many cases
can be safely and usefully processed as though it were in the
subset language. Extensability the property of a langauge that
allows this. The original language design can accomplish
extensability by defining, for predicable unknown extensions,
the handling by implementations -- for
[Roy]
Language A' is an extension of language A if and only if A is a
subset of A'.
[Ian]
TBray: I think CL and I agree that most of the issues are
probably not controverial.
CL: I agree with TB's assessment.
[Chris]
my response at
[19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Dec/0018.ht
ml
[19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Dec/0018.html
[Ian]
1.2.4 Is the 2nd sentence of the first para, about the
longevity of
messages, new in this draft? It doesn't have anything to do,
not in
the slightest, with the actual point being made in this
section.
TBray: Propose to lose that sentence.
CL: Fine to drop.
Action IJ: s/messages exchanged/technology shared.
[Chris]
"the technology shared among agents in the Web may last longer
than the agents themselves" would also be fine.
[Ian]
TBray: I propose that second para be dropped.
First sentence only?
TB proposal: Rewrite first sentence per CL proposal.
[Chris]
So, I agree with Tim about loosing the last para, but also
suggest deleting "not in terms of APIs or data structures or
object models, but in terms of protocols,". Make a positive
point about the benefits of message based interop, its not
necessary to knock other approaches to make the point.
ian does now
[Stuart]
s/content and sequence/content,sequence and semantics/
[Chris]
deletion proposed *is* in IRC
[TBray]
s/not in terms of APIs or data structures or object models,
but//
[Ian]
(in FIRST para)
[DanC]
"The Web follows Internet tradition in that its important
interfaces are defined in terms of protocols, by specifying the
content and sequence of the messages interchanged."
[Ian]
TBL: I'd like semantics to go in para.
TBray: I can live with semantics.
[DanC]
"The Web follows Internet tradition in that its important
interfaces are defined in terms of protocols, by specifying the
content, sequence and semantics of the messages interchanged."
[Chris]
The Web follows Internet tradition in that its important
interfaces are defined by specifying the content and sequence
of the messages interchanged.
[TBray]
The Web follows Internet tradition in that its important
interfaces are defined in terms of protocols, by specifying the
content, sequence, and semmantics of the messages
interdchanged.
[Roy]
s/content, sequence and/syntax, semantics, and sequence/
[Chris]
The Web follows Internet tradition in that its important
interfaces are defined by specifying the content, sequence and
semantics of the messages interchanged.
[TBray]
I'm OK with that
[Chris]
ok
[Ian]
CL: Fine.
[Chris]
+1 to roy
[TBray]
The Web follows Internet tradition in that its important
interfaces are defined in terms of protocols, by specifying the
syntax, semantics, and sequence.of the messages interchanged
[Chris]
go for it
[Ian]
Resolved: Accept TB's sentence.
Proposed: Drop third para.
Resolved: Drop third para.
TBray: 2. Would anyone else like to tighten up the first para
by retaining just the first and last sentences? It would be
immensely clearer I think.
[TBray]
Parties who wish to communicate must agree upon a shared set of
identifiers and on their meanings. Thus, Uniform Resource
Identifiers ([URI], currently being revised) which are global
identifiers in the context of the Web, are central to Web
architecture.
[Ian]
CL: I'm ok with losing second sentence...
[Roy]
/me diff's are so much clearer
[Chris]
I am fine with Tim Brays text
[Ian]
I note that this value bit comes back later in the section on
ambiguity.
DC: I meant "network effect" sentence as motivation for first
constraint.
[Zakim]
Ian, you wanted to talk about https if we get there. and to
comment.
[Ian]
IJ: There's a tie-in in 2.3 in section on ambiguity.
DC: I don't like first para of 2.
CL: +1 to TB's proposal.
TBL: Delete 2nd sentence, leave third.
[Chris]
yay!
[Ian]
Resolved: Delete sentence two of first para of 2.
TBray: I don't understand "Of particular importance are those
messages that express a relationship between a URI and a
representation of the resource it identifies. "
DC: Those are "200 Ok" responses.
TBray: Then please send that.
IJ Proposal: Clarify intent of sentence in question as last
sentence of para of 2.2.
[Roy]
seems redundant to the sentence following it
[Ian]
DC: The point is that the way URIs take on meaning is that you
get representations back when you deref the URI; 200 Ok
reponses are thus key.
[TBray]
yes, but doing well I think, have covered most of my hot-button
issues
[Ian]
DC: I'm ok to lose the sentence, having heard RF.
Proposal to delete "Of particular importance are those messages
that express a relationship between a URI and a representation
of the resource it identifies."
[Roy]
okay
[Ian]
CL: ok
DC: Ok
TBray: Ok
TBL: Ok
[Stuart]
ok
[Ian]
Resolved: Delete said sentence of 2.2.
s/URI ownership URI/URI ownership
[Editor notes]
3.2. Messages and Representations
TBray: I propose change to read: "A messsage may include: data,
metadata about the data, and metadata about the resource."
[Chris]
Some is about the resource, some is specific to a particular
resource representation.
[Ian]
CL: My point was that some is about the resource, some about
the representation.: E.g,. content-language is about the
representation.
TBray: Change to "metadata about the representation data"
[Chris]
we need to say both - resouece and representation metadata
'Vary' for example is about the resource
[Ian]
TBL: Simplify to metadata about the resource and the message.
[timbl]
may include data and metadata about the resource and the
message.
[DanC]
by "general" do you mean "typical"?
[Ian]
IJ: I moved "resource metadata" out of ordered list since not
the general case.
[Stuart]
message ~= message metadata, representation, represenation
metadata and resource metadata?
[TBray]
may include representation data as well as metadata about the
resource, the representation, and the message.
[timbl]
Propose: A message may include data, and metadata about the
resource and the message.
[Stuart]
+1 to TBray's draft
[Ian]
CL, DC: We prefer TB's proposal.
[Chris]
prefer tbrays one
[Roy]
prefers TBray's draft
[TBray]
A message may...
[Chris]
consensus!
[Ian]
Resolved to accept TB"s proposal.
TB Proposal: Lose GPN just before 3.5
[TBray]
Lose GP at end of 3.4.1
[Ian]
TBray: We say the same thing in preceding para (as in GPN)
[Chris]
"Server managers MUST ensure that resource metadata is
appropriate for each representation."
[Roy]
This is not the responsibility of server managers.
[timbl]
s/appropraite for each represnetation/correct
[Stuart]
how about s/approriate/accurate/
[Chris]
s/each/all
[TBray]
s/each/all the/
[Ian]
CL: My point is that if your metadata says something about a
resource, make sure it works for all representations.
RF: I don't think this is appropriate at all. It's not the
server manager's responsibility. A server manager is incapable
of knowing all the resources in the server namespace. The
metadata depends on how the author intends a resource to be
used (through representations).
[Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to point out that we can't really go into the
disnction between different parties in the publisher.
[Ian]
TBL: I think that RF's distinction is between different parties
within the publisher (abstraction).
IJ proposal to either add "metadata, especially that applying
across representations" and deleting GPN.
[Chris]
+1 to what Ian said
ok now to drop the box
[Zakim]
Chris, you wanted to argue that distinguishing between resouce
and representation is the crucial thing; drop 'server manager'
[Ian]
Proposed rewrite of sentence before GPN: Furthermore, server
managers can help reduce the risk of error through careful
assignment of representation metadata (especially that which
applies across representations)." And delete GPN.
[DanC]
so RESOLVED.
[Ian]
3.5 Why the new XForms plug? It adds nothing to the example and
creates confusion because people are going to wonder if this is
special and different and couldn't have been done with
old-fashioned HTML forms. Must be removed.
[Roy]
suggestion: Resource owners must manage the resource's provided
metadata as carefully as they manage the data, ensuring that
they remain consistent with the intended semantics of the
resource.
[Ian]
TBray: Move back from Xforms to HTML forms. Might make people
think that you need Xforms to do this.
CL: Propose "for example" around Xforms.
TBray: I'm fine with that.
[Chris]
add "for example' right before xforms
[Stuart]
+1
[Ian]
Proposed: "Built with, for example, XForms")
RF: I think the idea is good, not sure it improves readability.
[timbl]
(built with XForms ro HTMl forms)
[TBray]
OK with TBL's too
[Roy]
simple is better
[Ian]
TBray: Propose to lose parenthetical
[timbl]
Could we see the text we agreed on at the f2f in the 111?
[Ian]
DC: +1 to lose parenthetical
RF: +1 to lose parenthetical
Resolved: Lose parenthetical re: xforms.
[Zakim]
Chris, you wanted to say it makes a link to a finding
[Ian]
DC: Finding is cited in last para of the section.
4.2.2 "must understand". I totally don't agree that "must
understand" is limited to markup from another namespace. XHTML
could for example have applied a "must understand" policy to
new XHTML elements (they may have, for all I know). All you
need to do is /markup from an unrecognized
namespace/unrecognized markup/
DO: That's correct.
CL: Namespace can be relevant.:You could have different
handling whether in or out of namespace (and unrecognized).
[Chris]
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Nov/0074.ht
ml
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Nov/0074.html
[Ian]
TBray: CL's example is deceiving. It's a particular example,
less simple.
DO: +1 to TB
TBL: +1 to TB.
Resolved to accept TB's proposal.
4.3 The para beginning "Note that when content, presentation,
and interaction are separated" is *very* fuzzy and I think
could just be nuked. I don't remember discussing this, is it
the output of TAG discussion?
[DanC]
TBray proposes to delete para "Note that when content,
presentation, and interaction ..."
CL drafted it, Ian rewrote it
[Ian]
TBray: I withdraw my comment.
4.5.2 is the TAG comfy with being this much in favor of
XPointer? I'd need to hear a few explicit "YESes"
[TBray]
To define fragment identifier syntax, use at least the XPointer
Framework and XPointer element() Schemes.
[Ian]
TBL's text was this: "XLink is an appropriate specification for
representing links in hypertext XML applications." (4.5.2)
[Roy]
Please condense all four paragraphs of 4.5.2 into one.
[TBray]
+1 to Roy
[Ian]
TBL proposal: Move "XLink is an appropriate specification for
representing links in hypertext XML applications." to 4.4
[Chris]
I think that 4.5.2 is fine as it is
[Ian]
Support for move: TB
TB, CL: Leave where it is.
[Chris]
better where is is
[Ian]
TBL: Proposed change title of section to 4.5.2to "Hyperlinks in
XML"
[Chris]
Propose moving "XLink is an appropriate specification for
representing links in hypertext XML applications." to before "
XLink allows links to have multiple ends"
[TBray]
Middle of 1st para of 4.5.2
[Ian]
TBL: I think that makes sense..........
[Chris]
establishes a hypertext context
[Ian]
IJ proposes louder back link to hypertext section
[Roy]
editorial: s/( in | for ) XML// for all section headings 4.5.*
[Ian]
IJ summarizing proposed changes to section 4.5.2:
1. s/use at least/consider
2. move third para to first para per CL proposal.
3. Link back to hypertext links section.
[TBray]
+1 to Roy
[Ian]
TBray: +1
TBL: +1
SW: Don't use "consider" twice in same para.
[Editorial]
[Chris]
yes we do
[TBray]
=================>Ian
[DanC]
"specifically" might help, yes.
[Ian]
Resolved: Accept IJ proposal.
4.5.5 2nd para, 2nd sentence is COMPLETELY WRONG. Yes, you can
convert back & forth between qunames & URI/local-part pairs.
What you can't do is go back & forth from qnames to URIs; which
is clearly what Norm meant.
TBray: Yes there is. What there isn't is qname -> URI.
[TBray]
There is no single, accepted way to convert a QName into a URI
or vice-versa.
[Chris]
There is no single, accepted way to convert a QName into a URI.
[TBray]
don't lose vice-versa please
OK chris?
[Ian]
SW, TBL: Qualified names and QNames are different.
[Roy]
First sentence defines them as same.
[Ian]
TBray: I think SW is right.
[Stuart]
Propose s/("Qnames")//
[Chris]
section is called "4.5.5. QNames in XML" so no ambiguity...
[Ian]
IJ: I am confused seeing qualified name , then qname, then not
understanding the relation.
TBray: Nuke "QName", then insert a sentence explaining
relation.
[Roy]
/me I need to go, but please continue without me
[Ian]
TBL: "Qualified names were introduced by XMLNS and are
represented in XML by the "Qname" construct."
[DanC]
thanks, roy
[Ian]
IJ: I understand the proposed change the goal of ensuring that
text is not inconsistent.
[DanC]
PROPOSED: to fix QName stuff to the satisfaction Lilley and
Williams
[Ian]
TBray: +1
[DanC]
so RESOLVED.
[Ian]
Action IJ: Do another draft by Thursday, 4 Dec..
_________________________________________________________________
The TAG does not expect to cover these issues
2.2 Review of 3023-related actions
1. Action CL 2003/10/27: Draft XML mime type thingy with Murata-san
2.5 Findings
See also [21]TAG findings home page.
* [22]whenToUseGet-7: Finding: [23]URIs, Addressability, and the use
of HTTP GET and POST
* [24]contentPresentation-26: Draft finding: [25]Separation of
semantic and presentational markup, to the extent possible, is
architecturally sound
* [26]contentTypeOverride-24: 9 July 2003 draft of [27]Client
handling of MIME headers
1. Completed action RF 2003/09/15: Proposed substitute text in
light of [28]previous comments on charset param. ([29]Done)
2. [30]Comments from Philipp Hoschka about usability issues when
user involved in error correction. Is there a new Voice spec
out we can point to for example behavior?
3. [31]Comments from Chris Lilley
4. Lots of [32]comments from Martin Duerst
* [33]metadataInURI-31
[21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/findings/
[22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#whenToUseGet-7
[23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/whenToUseGet-20030922
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#contentPresentation-26
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/contentPresentation-26-20030630.html
[26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#contentTypeOverride-24
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect.html
[28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0051.html
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Sep/0043.html
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jul/0076.html
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jul/0113.html
[32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Sep/0108.html
[33] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/open-summary.html#metadataInURI-31
2.2.1 Expected new findings
* [34]siteData-36
* [35]abstractComponentRefs-37
Completed action IJ 2003/11/03: Publish DO's latest draft in
finding format ([36]Done)
[34] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#siteData-36
[35] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#abstractComponentRefs-37
[36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Nov/0008.html
_________________________________________________________________
Ian Jacobs for Stuart Williams and TimBL
Last modified: $Date: 2003/12/02 13:41:48 $
--
Ian Jacobs (ij@w3.org) http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs
Tel: +1 718 260-9447
Received on Tuesday, 2 December 2003 08:54:40 UTC