- From: Nikos Andronikos <Nikos.Andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 21:28:50 +0000
- To: www-svg <www-svg@w3.org>
Available at:
https://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html
And as text,
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
02 Jun 2016
[2]Agenda
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2016Jun/0000.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
nikos, AmeliaBR, shepazu, stakagi, Tav
Regrets
Chair
nikos
Scribe
Nikos
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Switch and conditional processing issues
2. [6]systemLanguage attribute
3. [7]no title/desc in switch
4. [8]Switch with non rendered (audio and visual )
content
5. [9]removal of requiredFeatures
* [10]Summary of Action Items
* [11]Summary of Resolutions
__________________________________________________________
<stakagi> hello
<scribe> scribe: Nikos
<scribe> scribenick: nikos
Switch and conditional processing issues
[12]https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/138
[12] https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/138
AmeliaBR: There's one issue as a summary, with lots of specific
issues hanging off that
<AmeliaBR> Summary: [13]https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/139
[13] https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/139
switch originally had three different attributes for
controlling when you switch different features
scribe: one is requiredExtensions, think the idea was that if
somebody somewhere in some other spec or software defined an
extension, then in svg we could define something that should
only be rendered if that was supported
... it doesn't seem to be well used
... but some things would be useful to define
... like whether this svg ua can render html
... have a non standard extension in FireFox that takes the xml
namespace
... not defined in the standard anywhere, and not supported by
other browsers
... think it would be useful to have some way of saying what
type of documents this UA supports
... or suggest what type of image file can you embed?
nikos: I think I'd like to defer this.
... can we put this in the integration spec?
... or another spec that's just a list of supported extensions?
... I'm supportive of capturing the extensions that are used by
user agents so we can get interop
shepazu: I thought integration spec too
AmeliaBR: SVG 2 just defines the content as a url and doesn't
have requirements beyond that
RESOLUTION: SVG WG will list details of common extensions and
supported values for the requiredExtensions attribute in the
integration spec
nikos: Would it be better to just support the picture element
rather than image formats in switch?
AmeliaBR: That's not as backwards compatible as switch
... right now, you could get an image if you used switch so you
would get a sensible format
shepazu: Is switch supported in illustrator or Inkscape?
AmeliaBR: it's supported in rendering afaik but you can't
generate it
Tav: I'm not 100% sure, I know we parse it but not sure what we
do with it
... think there are comments saying we should do something or
other with it
shepazu: When I think about SVG, there's a number of places, I
think of authoring tools and browsers primarily
... there's other environments, but I don't expect they're
using switch at all
... so when you say it's not supported, I think it would be
trivial to do this in an svg + html context
... and since modern browsers support html5, I wonder what part
of the ecosystem wouldn't support picture?
AmeliaBR: it's not supported right now for svg
Tav: not supported by Inkscape or Illustrator
shepazu: I think if we are going to change behaviour, we should
aim towards html rather than going alone
AmeliaBR: it's also relevant to foreignObject, to define what
time of content should be supported
shepazu: my position is generally to not add new features or
not extend less well supported features of SVG
nikos: Agree
systemLanguage attribute
<AmeliaBR> [14]https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/136
[14] https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/136
AmeliaBR: There's a bit of a limitation in how systemLanguage
is defined
... assumes users only have one preferred language
... or that all options are equal
... this can be problematic if users have for example preferred
languages, but will accept English if need be
... SMIL in later versions introduced an attribute that allows
the user agent to be smarter
... hasn't been adopted into svg
... is supported in FireFox
... though there's HTML parsing issues because it's a mixed
case attribute
... my pref is to spec so smart language matching is the
default
... and not worry about the attribute, because I don't see when
you'd want the other behaviour
nikos: I support this. Language choice is one of the more
useful uses of switch
... it's defined already in another spec so we can just
reference it
... are there any issues changing the default behaviour?
AmeliaBR: are people leaning towards adding the reoder
attribute? or define language matching?
Tav: the latter
AmeliaBR: In FireFox you have to specifically allow reorder,
the default is the old behaviour
shepazu: as long as we can get implementers, I like the second
option
RESOLUTION: Language selection order for systemLanguage
attribute will follow allowReorder=true by default
<scribe> ACTION: shepazu to have a go at changing
systemLanguage to allowReorder by default [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3844 - Have a go at changing
systemlanguage to allowreorder by default [on Doug Schepers -
due 2016-06-09].
shepazu: would be best to include inline rather than reference
SMIL
no title/desc in switch
AmeliaBR: think this is just editorial
... title and desc interfere with the selection of child
elements so we resolved to remove them from the content model
Switch with non rendered (audio and visual ) content
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: There was a previous resolution that switch
doesn't affect script and style
... we had an issue raised about how it interacts with audio
and video
... my suggestion was that it should be treated as if audio and
video are display:none
... which means the audio and video don't play
nikos: I agree with that behaviour. Was trying to find where in
HTML5 it says audio and video don't play on display none
... if anyone knows where that is, drop a link in the issue
please
... There was the question of whether resources should be
loaded at all. But they probably have to, because they can be
accessed through the DOM. It's like images that are
display:none
removal of requiredFeatures
In SVG 1.1 we had requiredFeatures that had a defined list or
category of features that svg would support
scribe: that has been removed from SVG 2
... browsers implement it in a way where they didn't behave
properly if you put in something that wasn't recognised
... I was wondering whether it might make sense to add back in
as a deprecated feature
... so UA must support all SVG 11 strings
nikos: was wondering if we should leave it in and define it as
returning true
AmeliaBR: that's the same as removing because of the behaviour
defined in the spec.
nikos: that's ok then, probably the reason why it was just
removed. I say just leave it as is
shepazu: I agree with that
... browser vendors in the past have always pushed back on
conditional processing. Unless that has changed in the last
couple of years, I don't see us getting momentum in the
implementation so don't think we should put much effort in
AmeliaBR: CSS conditional processing seems to be doing well,
I'd love to build on that but not something we can do now
shepazu: I tried to put something like this in dom3 events but
was met with strong resistance
... they're not bad ideas, just need to focus on what we need
to do to get SVG 2 done
AmeliaBR: agree with new features, what do we do with existing
features that are poorly implemented? How do we clean up the
spec?
... I have lots of ideas how to make switch cool with MQ and
stuff
shepazu: If a feature was poorly implemented, it could be
because it was poorly specced, it could be that it wasn't
tested well, could be lack of browser interest
... we need to work out on a case by case basis which one it
was
... for switch, it never really passed the critical mass of
implementers that it needed to succeed
... understand what you're saying about what do we do with
what's left in the spec
AmeliaBR: switch and requiredFeatures has two implementations
unless it's been torn out in the last year
... problem is the feature strings aren't clearly defined
... testing for filter support for example didn't mean the
feature was supported without bugs
shepazu: that's why hasFeature fell by the wayside
... the fine grainedness was missing
... browsers don't want to implement that level of grain
... I say this as a person who strongly advocated for this in
the past
AmeliaBR: it might be useful to have a note in the conditional
processing overview saying the requiredFeatures attribute has
been removed
<scribe> ACTION: Amelia to add a note regarding removal of
requiredFeatures [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3845 - Add a note regarding removal
of requiredfeatures [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2016-06-09].
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Amelia to add a note regarding removal of
requiredFeatures [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: shepazu to have a go at changing systemLanguage
to allowReorder by default [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action02
[18] http://www.w3.org/2016/06/02-svg-minutes.html#action01
Summary of Resolutions
1. [19]SVG WG will list details of common extensions and
supported values for the requiredExtensions attribute in
the integration spec
2. [20]Language selection order for systemLanguage attribute
will follow allowReorder=true by default
[End of minutes]
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Received on Thursday, 2 June 2016 21:29:26 UTC