- From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 08:34:19 +1100
- To: www-svg@w3.org
Minutes from this week’s telcon are here:
http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html
and below as text.
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
05 Mar 2015
[2]Agenda
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Mar/0009.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Thomas_Smailus, krit, [IPcaller], ed, heycam, AmeliaBR,
[Microsoft], stakagi, Tav, nikos
Regrets
Chair
ed
Scribe
Cameron
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]computed value for <length>
2. [6]SVG 2 Chapter Assessment
3. [7]Text Issue 3 - semantics of foreignObject
4. [8]Issue 13, 15: Allow 'shape-inside', 'shape-outside'
to reference an image
5. [9]Issue 35: Does shape-padding effect text laid out
using 'extent'
6. [10]Issue 54, 55, 56, 57 - should shadownodes ever be
returned in
getIntersectionList/getEnclosureList/checkIntersection
/checkEnclosure?
7. [11]Issue 49 and 50 - issues belong in geometry or
styling chapters (should be defined once for all
presentation attributes)
8. [12]Issue 48 - we need to reference HTML.next for
this, can we do that? html5 REC doesn't have this
9. [13]Issue 39 and 40 - types chapter removed the
list-of-t definition, use HTML's set of
space-separated tokens definition instead?
10. [14]Issue 34 - wasn't entirely clear from f2f minutes,
should scripts in external <use> documents run?
11. [15]Issue 32 - drop the offending paragraph? Still add
example?
12. [16]Issue 23 - other namespaced markup in title and
desc, what is the purpose?
13. [17]Are xpointer target fragments still supported?
* [18]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 05 March 2015
<scribe> Scribe: Cameron
<scribe> ScribeNick: heycam
computed value for <length>
<ed>
[19]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Mar/0005.h
tml
[19] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Mar/0005.html
ed: I was reviewing the spec, and I found that we have some
properties that use <length> grammar from CSS
... and in our spec we say what the computed value is
... for some of our properties we don't say "absolute <length>"
for the computed value
... I propose we align with the rest of CSS and have <length>
computed values be absolute
AmeliaBR: so the effect would be if you do getCS you would get
the px value equivalent, rather than a percentage etc.?
ed: yes
... well percentage is special, but other units yes you would
get px back
AmeliaBR: as you say, it's what CSS does
krit: percentage would still be a percentage in the computed
value
ed: if no one objects to that, I'd be happy to udpate the spec
(no objection)
RESOLUTION: Properties defined in SVG will have <length> values
compute down to absolute px values.
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 to make properties with
<length>s compute down to absolute px values. [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3763 - Update svg 2 to make
properties with <length>s compute down to absolute px values.
[on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
ed: we sometimes define the parsing as <length> | <percentage>
| <number>
... but most numbers use <length> | <percentage>
AmeliaBR: I think there's text that says "a bare number is a
length with an implicit unit"
<AmeliaBR>
[21]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#InterfaceSVGLength
[21] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#InterfaceSVGLength
<AmeliaBR> correction:
[22]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#syntax
[22] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#syntax
<AmeliaBR> Quote: "The insertion of the <number> symbols allows
for unitless length and angles to be used in presentation
attribute while disallowing them in corresponding property
values."
heycam: what I tried to do was make presentation attributes
accept numbers implicitly (because properties defined in CSS
specs don't include number explicitly)
... for properties defined in SVG, though, they include number
explicitly
krit: I don't think we need wording here for presentation
attributes
... because CSS defines that presentation attributes allow
unit-less numbers
heycam: can you please give me a link to that text
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron Talk to Tab about implicit number
units in properties [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3764 - Talk to tab about implicit
number units in properties [on Cameron McCormack - due
2015-03-12].
AmeliaBR: I wanted to clarify the wording you've got there:
"unitless numbers can only be allowed in presentation
attributes"
... whereas currently we allow unitless numbers in SVG-specific
style properties
... like stroke-width
... even if you're declaring that in a style sheet
... would we be disallowing that?
krit: for these properties, they need to specify <number> as
well
... stroke-dasharray, stroke-width, etc.
heycam: I did intend to put <number> explicitly in stroke-width
etc.
krit: I don't think we want to have numbers on the geometry
properties
... every new property should follow the general CSS way of
defining properties
... stroke-width, stroke-dasharray, stroke-dashoffset and
baseline-shift are the ones WebKit supports
... so for cx, cy, etc. we don't have the quirks mode enabled
and so numbers aren't accepted
ed: for the geometry ones I haven't allowed numbers in blink
either
AmeliaBR: do we want to add a note to encourage authors to
always put explicit units?
heycam: yes I think that'd be good
krit: I think Tab suggested using quirks mode for these
properties to get the numbers
... but adding <number> explicitly is fine as well
... I agree about adding a note
<scribe> ACTION: Add a note about avoiding unitless values
[recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Error finding 'Add'. You can review and register
nicknames at
<[25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>.
[25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron Add a note about avoiding unitless
values [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3765 - Add a note about avoiding
unitless values [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-03-12].
AmeliaBR: so all existing presentation attributes accept number
as an alternative to length
heycam: hypothetical question: if we introduced a new SVG
property that wasn't previously an attribute, would we accept a
number in the presentation attribute?
krit: I'd say yes
AmeliaBR: yes, good for consistency
ed: the remaining question in my email was regarding how units
are supposed to be handled when you serialize or interpolate
values while animating
... and I found that implementations differ
... was wondering if this was defined in CSS
... so getCS and CSS Animations
... what happens if you animate from 2em to 10ex for example?
... what happens to the values in between?
krit: I think there is no definition in CSS yet for this
ed: was just wondering if it's defined somewhere
heycam: shouldn't this be defined in Transitions/Animations?
<AmeliaBR>
[27]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-transitions/#animatable-types
[27] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-transitions/#animatable-types
krit: maybe should be, but isn't
"when both values are lengths, interpolated as lengths" ...
AmeliaBR: to go between 10px and 100%, you go beteween
calc(10px + 0%) and calc(0px + 100%)
heycam: oh, I forgot transitions/animations work between
computed values
... so you'll have two px values
SVG 2 Chapter Assessment
[28]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assess
ment
[28] https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment
heycam: I only got 2 of my 3 chapters done
ed: since we started at the top last time, let's start at the
bottom this time
... next available person, Text?
Text Issue 3 - semantics of foreignObject
Tav: there was an issue in the spec asking to define the
semantics of foreignObject
... I'm not sure we even have to talk about foreignObject here
at all
just before
[29]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextLayoutContentAre
a
[29] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextLayoutContentArea
"If more complex layout is required (bulleted lists, tables,
etc.), text can be rendered in another XML namespace such as
XHTML [XHTML] embedded inline within a ‘foreignObject’ element.
(Note: the exact semantics of this approach are not completely
defined at this time.) "
heycam: how about just turn that paragraph into a note and
point to the foreignObject chapter for more complex text layout
support
Tav: ok, sounds good
Issue 13, 15: Allow 'shape-inside', 'shape-outside' to reference an
image
Tav: in the Shapes spec, these can link to images
<ed> [30]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextShapeInside
[30] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextShapeInside
Tav: so you reference an image and a threshold, it's defining a
shape using an image
heycam: what is the issue? is that allowed?
AmeliaBR: it is supported in a number of browsers in HTML
Tav: so we should just allow it
heycam: in terms of restrictions on external images, etc., that
should be in Integration
Tav: ok
Issue 35: Does shape-padding effect text laid out using 'extent'
Tav: so where define an are to put text in (using 'extent') do
we allow shape-padding to affect that?
... my feeling is no
AmeliaBR: if you want to lay out text in a padding rectangle,
you can create a rectangular shape and use shape-padding on it
heycam: ok, that makes sense then
Issue 54, 55, 56, 57 - should shadownodes ever be returned in
getIntersectionList/getEnclosureList/checkIntersection/checkEnclosure
?
ed: so say you have a rectangle, and you want all elements that
are within the rectangle
... if you had a <use> in there, would you expect the elements
referenced by the <use> to be returned, or just the <use>
itself?
... I think my initial feeling is that it should just return
the <use> element
AmeliaBR: I would say so too
... that avoids some issues; if you're talking about individual
nodes, or part of the <use> is fully enclosed but not the
entire thing
... maybe long term we could have an extra parameter
... but by default, we should just return entire elements in
the main DOM
heycam: I think that makes sense
ed: I haven't done any testing, though I would be surprised if
an implementation returned shadow nodes
AmeliaBR: last I checked, these methods aren't implemented in
firefox
RESOLUTION: getIntersectionList and friends can return a <use>
but not the elements it references
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to make getIntersectionList and friend
return a <use> but not the elements it references [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3766 - Make getintersectionlist and
friend return a <use> but not the elements it references [on
Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
Issue 49 and 50 - issues belong in geometry or styling chapters
(should be defined once for all presentation attributes)
ed: what does SVGAnimatedLength return for the attributes we
made properties
... I think this is a general issue
... should probably address this in the styling
heycam: I have an issue to do that in the Types chapter
ed: so I can remove mine?
heycam: yes that's fine
Issue 48 - we need to reference HTML.next for this, can we do that?
html5 REC doesn't have this
ed: there was some definition for the title and activeElement
on SVGSVGElement
... which are defined in HTML.next but not HTML5 (W3C versions)
heycam: I guess we have to then
ed: ok
... there is a W3C WD version has these; I'll check
Issue 39 and 40 - types chapter removed the list-of-t definition, use
HTML's set of space-separated tokens definition instead?
ed: i want to use this HTML definition
... e.g. for requiredFeatures
... it's a simple string-like attributes
heycam: I was going to use that algorithm to use this algorithm
for the class attribute
... so I was going to add another case in the attribute parsing
section
Issue 34 - wasn't entirely clear from f2f minutes, should scripts in
external <use> documents run?
ed: wasn't clear from the minutes that scripts run in external
documents
... if the <script> is outside the subtree you're referencing
AmeliaBR: if it's outside, I wouldn't expect it to run
heycam: I can't recall the discussions we had on this, but I
think not running the script is good
AmeliaBR: right now we have an option to use a whole external
file; we should be clear what happens with script
heycam: so what about not running script in the resource
document, and also not in the cloned shadow tree?
ed: I think this could use some testing too
... so I will probably do taht
... but trying to restrict scripting would be good
AmeliaBR: was a decision made about <use> referencing a
<foreignObject>?
... some browsers copy the <foreignObject> content, some don't
ed: I don't think we've discussed that issue
AmeliaBR: you're only supposed to reference graphics content,
but you can have a <foreignObject> in a <g>
... so what happens if you have other, non-graphical content
within a <g>
BogdanBrinza: for IE, it gets cloned and rendered like a
regular <use> element
... there's no special behaviour for foreignObject
... (though we don't have public builds for that yet)
AmeliaBR: do you know whether the copy is an interactive copy?
or just an image of the original object?
... e.g. if it has form controls?
BogdanBrinza: I am not sure... but I can try it, good question
... if it's cloned it should be interactive
ed: would appreciate some help with testing this
BogdanBrinza: I can help with Windows/OSX testing
ed: mostly asking for help with writing tests
BogdanBrinza: I can help with that too
... we do have some tests you can reuse
<scribe> ACTION: Bogdan to help Erik test unusual elements
inside <use>d subtrees [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3767 - Help erik test unusual
elements inside <use>d subtrees [on Bogdan Brinza - due
2015-03-12].
Issue 32 - drop the offending paragraph? Still add example?
ed: this is about the <use> element
... there's a paragraph that talks about visibility
<ed> [33]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#UseElement
[33] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#UseElement
ed: and how visibility:hidden does something particular
... not sure it's necessary to have this paragraph
... the issue asks why visibility is called out specially
... and that it might be better to have an example to show what
it's trying to describe
... not sure what the example would be like, thouhg
... I'd be happy just dropping that para
AmeliaBR: I think it's an interesting example, but definitely
should be an informative note or example, not part of the
normative text
ed: just not sure there's a good example not shown by the other
examples
<scribe> ACTION: Amelia to think of an example of struct.html
issue 32 [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3768 - Think of an example of
struct.html issue 32 [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due
2015-03-12].
Issue 23 - other namespaced markup in title and desc, what is the
purpose?
ed: I think the issue is to say what this purpose is
heycam: presumably to include some more structured descriptions
rather than just plain text
AmeliaBR: and originally also so that you could have complex
fallback content, in a browser that didn't support SVG
... that's no longer relevant though
... I'm pretty sure the main purpose is so you can have
structured content inside <desc>
heycam: note also the HTML parsing algorithm allows HTML
content inside here
AmeliaBR: I'm not sure if there's much of a benefit within
<title>, but some browsers do support <br> within <title> and
some don't
... a weird random thing
... maybe that should be cleaned up
heycam: within SVG documents or HTML title?
<AmeliaBR>
[35]http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23626422/tooltip-to-disp
lay-in-two-separate-lines-not-working-in-firefox/25690802#25690
802
[35] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23626422/tooltip-to-display-in-two-separate-lines-not-working-in-firefox/25690802#25690802
AmeliaBR: so this may have been coming from this comment that
external namespaces are OK
... so some support <br> within title
Tav: I don't really like the idea of having <br> in there
... maybe white-space:pre-line?
AmeliaBR: that's the other thing that's changed since SVG 1.1
... in the title="" in HTML you can put line breaks
... so either way isn't conforming to specs, but all browsers
allow one way or the other
... either with <br> or a hard line break
heycam: and that's a hard line break without setting the
white-space property?
AmeliaBR: yes
... and only for <title>
Tav: putting a <br> seems wrong to me
... allowing white space to be preserved seems more compatible
AmeliaBR: and with the new white-space option, I think that
will be more reasonable
Tav: you can style your title
AmeliaBR: it's tricky, because tooltips aren't styled with CSS
... I have no idea whether white-space:pre would apply
heycam: do you think we need a issue in here to define this
kind of thing?
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to add purpose for markup within
title/desc [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3769 - Add purpose for markup within
title/desc [on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to add an issue to describe the behaviour
of markup within title/desc (regarding line breaking, at least)
[recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3770 - Add an issue to describe the
behaviour of markup within title/desc (regarding line breaking,
at least) [on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
Are xpointer target fragments still supported?
AmeliaBR: ChrisL says XPointer stuff should all have been
removed from the spec
... so I think we can just remove this
ed: yes I think that's right
<scribe> ACTION: Amelia to clean up the reference to XPointer
in the spec [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3771 - Clean up the reference to
xpointer in the spec [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due
2015-03-12].
trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Add a note about avoiding unitless values
[recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Amelia to clean up the reference to XPointer in
the spec [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: Amelia to think of an example of struct.html
issue 32 [recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Bogdan to help Erik test unusual elements inside
<use>d subtrees [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron Add a note about avoiding unitless values
[recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron Talk to Tab about implicit number units
in properties [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to add an issue to describe the behaviour of
markup within title/desc (regarding line breaking, at least)
[recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to add purpose for markup within title/desc
[recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to make getIntersectionList and friend
return a <use> but not the elements it references [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 to make properties with
<length>s compute down to absolute px values. [recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
--
Cameron McCormack ≝ http://mcc.id.au/
Received on Thursday, 5 March 2015 21:34:50 UTC