- From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
- Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:14:18 +0100
- To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html [1]W3C [1] http://www.w3.org/ - DRAFT - SVG WG London F2F 2014 23 Aug 2014 [2]Agenda [2] https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/London_2014/Agenda See also: [3]IRC log [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-irc Attendees Present Rossen, Jonathan, Chris, Doug, Erik, Cameron, Tav, Dirk, Rik, Nikos, Brian, Konno Regrets Chair Cameron Scribe krit, cabanier, heycam Contents * [4]Topics 1. [5]Getting rid of uses of const enums in SVG DOM 2. [6]Raw cubic bezier coordinate list accessors 3. [7]Catmull-Rom 4. [8]Parameterised SVG * [9]Summary of Action Items __________________________________________________________ <krit> scribeNick: krit Getting rid of uses of const enums in SVG DOM ed: Ties in tinto disucssion yesterday ... would get rid of const enums from SVG DOM ... might fall out of SVG DOM removal ... I prefer replacing it by simple DOMStrings ... I am concerned about new units getting new values ... we did not expose these new values ... this causes complexity in implementation. which values are exposed, which aren't ... do we want do wait until we experimented with removing SVG DOM first? heycam: would be interesting what is kept ... SVGTransform has individual enums as does SVGPath ... interested if they are used and useful krit: no ed: there are convertTo methods on SVGLength for instance ... same for SVGAngle and others heycam: preseverveAspectRatio krit: filters have a lot of these enumeration heycam: we should keep SVGLength around every though we remove SVGAnimated objects <heycam> [10]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/types.html#__svg__SVGLength__conve rtToSpecifiedUnits [10] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/types.html#__svg__SVGLength__convertToSpecifiedUnits krit: don’t think that there is heycam: there are some conversions used in SVGLength krit: point is, people just convert to px heycam: If you are able to remove SVGLength all together then…. krit: we should discuss enums in isolation from SVG DOM removal heycam: yeah ed: should we do it in addition? heycam: in addition would be easy ... we could have type() ... and take then IDL enum type ed: I added a unit turn to SVGAngle which is not exposed as an enum value in Blink krit: for SVGLength alone we have a huge amount of new units ... which enumerations are you thinking about? In all IDL files or all of them? ed: everywhere ... and use new unit types ... also, there is no way to know if an implementation is supporting certain units heycam: could create a new SVGAngle object ... and apply “7turns" ... and look at the unit less value and look if it is 7 krit: for a short term it is reasonable heycam: I wonder how many improvements should we do before knowing if we remove SVG DOM or not? krit: Implementations removing SVG DOM now, obviously don’t need to care. The spec can still be ahead and change SVG DOM in case experiment fails ed: we have the existing method take a number or string ... can you have multiple types on a property with WebIDL? heycam: yes <heycam> [11]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/improving-svg-dom/#enumerat ions [11] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/improving-svg-dom/#enumerations krit: sure you want a string and not a enum value in the sense of WebIDL heycam: I think you do krit: they are still basically string with special exception handling ed: yes, that is what i want heycam: still wonder if it is worth to do now ed: I think it is ok to have it in parallel heycam: if we need to keep the object around and have new stuff…. ... .. in my proposal I had a hard cut ... I suppose it makes sense if we need to keep SVG DOM ed: I would still go ahead with both,… experimenting with removing SVG DOM and implement the new enum krit: so you suppoty old enums and the new? where is the benefit for you? complexity stays? ed: so I will probably remove the old const enums and replace it with new enums krit: if you break the old one… do you think it is worth still having enums at all? will ppl move over? ed: seeing where the experiment goes probably makes more sense ... ok, I’ll bring up the topic again Raw cubic bezier coordinate list accessors birtles: proposal was to add a method to get the points of a path as an array of dicts ... we talked about details in the past… open vs closed paths ... tow motivations: simplicity ... and performance ... in many implementations there is a perf hit from switching from JS to native code ... with Cameron’s DOM we get a bunch of dict objects as an array ... performance is less significant Tav: can you handle arc? birtles: approximations ... didn’t work out on details Tav: how about markers birtles: doesn’t take markers into account just path data ... same data structure for setting and getting on path generation heycam: are there perf improvements with using types instead of arrays? birtles: no ... I can still shim and implement it heycam: do you have comparisons between my proposal and yours? birtles: we can do that fairly easy ... seems worth while investigating ... question if we bother at all heycam: think it is reasonable ... think the normalization is nice birtles: we also do not implement normalized path segments in Mozilla ChrisL: why? krit: heycam: difficult to keep live objects in synch birtles: also, it is an array of arrays ... because of subpaths krit: I think for normalization you don’t care too much about precise results, but you want to have the same amount of segments with the same order ... that is where Opera Presto and WebKit behave totally different sometimes shepazu: we should say how a basic shape transforms into a path heycam: I didn’t do that yet Tav: we had the discussion at least krit: didn’t you do that for dash array heycam ? <Rossen_> can somebody let me into the bldg please heycam: yes, it would be a reason to support it shepazu: do you have anything about animating shapes? birtles: really do want to do that shepazu: we are not going to make it perfect :) ... lets pick it up another time <Tav> [12]http://tavmjong.free.fr/blog/?p=741 [12] http://tavmjong.free.fr/blog/?p=741 action birtles Try implementing path data array and get performance numbers <trackbot> Created ACTION-3645 - try implementing path data array and get performance numbers [on Brian Birtles - due 2014-08-30]. ISSUE: look into shape morphing <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2461 - Look into shape morphing. Please complete additional details at <[13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2461/edit>. [13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2461/edit%3E. <heycam> ACTION: Make topic scripts capture actions and issues too. [recorded in [14]http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action01] <trackbot> Error finding 'Make'. You can review and register nicknames at <[15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>. [15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users%3E. <heycam> ACTION: Cameron Make topic scripts capture actions and issues too. [recorded in [16]http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action02] <trackbot> Created ACTION-3646 - Make topic scripts capture actions and issues too. [on Cameron McCormack - due 2014-08-30]. <Tav> [17]https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9489736/catmull-rom-cur ve-with-no-cusps-and-no-self-intersections/23980479#23980479 [17] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9489736/catmull-rom-curve-with-no-cusps-and-no-self-intersections/23980479#23980479 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to add math for Catmull-Rom curves to the spec [recorded in [18]http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action03] <trackbot> Created ACTION-3647 - Add math for catmull-rom curves to the spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2014-08-30]. <heycam> ACTION-3647: [19]https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9489736/catmull-rom-cur ve-with-no-cusps-and-no-self-intersections/23980479#23980479 [19] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9489736/catmull-rom-curve-with-no-cusps-and-no-self-intersections/23980479#23980479 <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-3647 Add math for catmull-rom curves to the spec. <heycam> ACTION-3640: This should be done for symbol, marker and foreignObject. <trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-3640 Add |symbol { overflow: visible; }| to the ua style sheet and add authoring suggestion to say to design symbols around (0,0). <heycam> -- actions session -- <heycam> fg <ed> bg <ed> ^C^C^C <ChrisL> issue-59? <trackbot> Sorry, but issue-59 does not exist. <ChrisL> issue-58? <trackbot> Sorry, but issue-58 does not exist. <cabanier> scribenick: cabanier Catmull-Rom cam: I added a section on Catmull-rom to the spec <heycam> heyheycam has joined #svg <heycam> [20]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/paths.html#PathDataCatmullRomC ommand [20] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/paths.html#PathDataCatmullRomCommand cam: syntax wise, I added just what Doug's polyfill said ... you need 3 coordinates ... the curves take a sequence of point and the path goes from the second control point to ??? shepazu: in my implementation, the first point is the moveto and the last 2 points are the same ... technically it needs an extra control point (lots of discussion at the whiteboard) shepazu: I suggest that we have 2 point heycam: I think it should be a minimum of 1 point shepazu: then it should be a line ... I agree that it should only be 1 point heycam: the spec at the moment, if the previous is a moveto... ChrisL: I think there should be a minimum of 2. (draws on whiteboard) ... you always need 4 points ... you always go between 2nd and third point ... you make up first and last by doing the tangent ... you always start drawing from the first point ... you can do a fictitious last point shepazu: the point you start from is the last point from the previous heycam: it's the current point ChrisL: yes ... currentpoint is inferred ed: what would it look like if you do a circle Tav: would 4 points make a circle? shepazu: I don't think so? Tav: how do I close the path? ChrisL: closepath will be a straight line ... to do it smoothly we need a different symbol ... which is a new requirement shepazu: I don't agree ... that is not the point of this ChrisL: suppose you draw a set of CR pieces, he wants a new command that does the continuity shepazu: so, I understand what Tav is asking for but I'd rather not take on that requirement since it makes the model so complex ... you can do it. we don't have it for beziers ChrisL: I don't agree. you just get the data differently shepazu: I would like to split it into 2 different issues ... CR and the issue of soft closing ... I can see a reasonable additional command that closes smoothly ... for instance 'y' and possible reuse the catmull rom algorithm ... we rejected tangient parameter to keep it simple ... we just want point <krit> RRSAgent: q+ Tav: in order to make a closed path you might need to choose ... given a circle a, b,c,d you may want to consider point d to do a smooth close to point a ... you might want to consider d to a, to draw a to b shepazu: why do you want it to be a circle? tav: I don't. it can be any shape shepazu: rather than treat this a catmull-rom curve, let's call this a smooth closed path ... and it would act differently if it was a bezier ChrisL: not quite shepazu: catmull rom is the only one where the previous point changes the next point (more heated discussion) heycam: if you have beziers it's not always possible to calculate the point krit: why does inkscape need it? Tav: it doesn't krit: as an implementor, I don't need this and wouldn't implement ChrisL: are you making an informed decision? krit: can you do it today with bezier? ChrisL: given an arbitrary sequence of points can you today make a smooth curve through them? heycam: yes, we can use beziers. ChrisL: and the group agreed to do it krit: that doesn't really matter. ChrisL: so you don't want new features in SVG? <Rossen_> The circle of Tav [21]https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=DA0535041C44EB4D!2632 7&authkey=!AL_LeXmaTwrSbZc&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg [21] https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=DA0535041C44EB4D!26327&authkey=!AL_LeXmaTwrSbZc&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg krit: I didn't say that? ChrisL: are you opposed to new features jwatt: are you against bezier curves? Tav: it's about authors just doing smooth graphs ... and I'm against it because it will be used incorrectly ChrisL: people can do a lot of things wrong krit: is catmull rom the best algorithm? ... it's the most known shepazu: and the easiest to do ... but it's not trivial to do krit: but you can do it with bezier unlike with line to approximate beziers shepazu: I'd like to stay with the resolution that we'll implement this ... everytime I mention this, people like it ... authors have asked for this ... what is the point of your objection? ... if you have a better implementation, please put it forward krit: I think we have primitives to do this. shepazu: let's not waste f2f time on this krit: there's no proposal. ... we've discussed this many times already shepazu: that is inaccurate. you're trying to knock us back ChrisL: we have a formula and a couple of issues heycam: I think we should talk about the issues shepazu: the smooth close path is a separate issue ChrisL: agreed shepazu: I would be ok to do a smooth closed path command tav: inkscape has that problem, but I don't want to distract ... a smooth bezier to catmull-rom transition ... you can get the first point from the handle ChrisL: I propose that we'll just address the issues ... should we add a tension parameter? resolution: Catmull-Rom will not add a tension parameter and will stay with the standard ... Catmull-Rom will not add a tension parameter and will stay with the standard parameters ... should we allow less than three coordinate pairs? heycam: if you're building up a path, you need them <shepazu> [22]http://schepers.cc/svg/path/dotty.svg [22] http://schepers.cc/svg/path/dotty.svg ChrisL: as long as we define what it is so we don't get degenerate behavior ... one point is a straight line from the current point ... two points will give you a smooth curve RESOLUTION: the r command will take at mimum 1 coordinate pair that will draw a straight line ChrisL: issue 8 is no longer a problem then ... the moving without drawing anything was solved by the previous resolution <ed> (for reference, issue 8 was: "Is it a problem that the command will move then pen from the current position to (x1, y1) without drawing anything? If so, should we made the first control point explicit in the command rather than implicitly taken from the current position? That would then mirror the behavior written above for how the current position is left at the second-last control point.") heycam: I think it's more about having the implicit points ChrisL: we now move what multiple r commands means ... a single r with give you continuity ... by having multiple ones, you will not get the continuity shepazu: I don't really like that. it's a bit confusing ChrisL: if it didn't have that behavior it would act as if it was one command heycam: I think I prefer that each r is its own smooth curve Tav: bezier to catmull rom needs a way to break it ChrisL: can we agree that we don't get continuity heycam: a new r command will not be continuous with the previous? shepazu: I agree with that RESOLUTION: multiple R commands will not have curve continuity between them ChrisL: issue 9: Where should we link to for a definition of Catmull-Rom curves so that we don't have to redefine them here? ... there's a wikipedia with the math heycam: there were a couple of different options <ChrisL> [23]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_Catmull%E2%80%93Ro m_spline [23] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_Catmull%E2%80%93Rom_spline heycam: mostly about the implicit begin and end points Tav: they're mostly about how to avoid loops ChrisL: I propose to use the Centripetal one from the wikipedia article heycam: I think that's a good idea ... I'm going to read up on it ... do we want the formulation that doesn't introduce the loops and cusps? <heycam> [24]https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9489736/catmull-rom-cur ve-with-no-cusps-and-no-self-intersections/23980479#23980479 [24] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9489736/catmull-rom-curve-with-no-cusps-and-no-self-intersections/23980479#23980479 RESOLUTION: catmull-rom will use the formula that doesn't introduce the loops and cusps Tav: the stackoverflow with the six votes is the one we want shepazu: can we also put in the spec on how to deform this to beziers? heycam: we don't have to do that ... informally, it might be good to have it shepazu: can we call it 'p' instead of 'r'? heycam: it doesn't really matter ChrisL: sure jwatt: I want more than one letter ChrisL: people don't really care heycam: people will just fiddle with it RESOLUTION: the name of the Catmull-Rom command is 'p' reflecting 'points' heycam: one final issue is that we should decide that we get the implicit points from the tangent shepazu: wasn't there a good pdf? ChrisL: yes, I will drop it in <ChrisL> [25]http://www.cemyuksel.com/research/catmullrom_param/catmullr om.pdf [25] http://www.cemyuksel.com/research/catmullrom_param/catmullrom.pdf heycam: this does limit the set of curves that you can produce shepazu: I would contend that you're not looking for precision but convenience heycam: that's reasonable ... so, at the start of the p command and the previous is a curve, how do you determine the preceding point? ... if it's cubic or quadratic, since we have the control point, we will use that ... if we don't, we continue the line and use the point from the same distance cabanier: do you need to remember an extra point? heycam: you have to do that anyway ... to summarize: if you have a previous command other than 'p', the implicit first point is based on the tangent just preceding the curve ... you always know the one coming in if it's a line or curve shepazu: can you come back with a more concrete proposal? heycam: I'll make an issue in the spec <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam Parameterised SVG jwatt: we have a need that I want to discuss ... it stems from Firefox OS people who need performance, and keep memory usage down -- they use icon fonts ... I'd like to move them away from icon fonts towards using SVG ... I ran through some alternatives to make performance of SVG-in-<img> enough for their needs ... I think we can get close to that, but one thing they want is to be able to do what they do with icon fonts ... the color font on the <span> element they apply the font to, can be used to style the content of the icon ... right now we have no mechanism to do that ChrisL: not any style across that boundary jwatt: they want to have a way to reference out of the SVG to get a computed value ... or pass it in, either way ... they want to do it with CSS selectors, so set a property on it ... rather than like the params spec, where you have to add something to the query string or param elements heycam: why? jwatt: because that's going to be more convenient to theme things shepazu: the way I've rethought parameters, in the context of CSS Variables -- ... params consisted of two things. the way to specify how you pass the things into the file, the second was how to propagate those values and use them in the file ... they're two separate problems ... I think Variables are probably good enough for the second half ... I'm proposing we're left with the problem of the behaviour of passing the values in, and/or having implicit behaviour ... I don't care if parameters are explicitly declared, or if you can implicitly extract them from the context ... both seem reasonable to me krit: my question first is, does it need to be <img>? can it be <object>? ... <img> has security implications ... the webapps sec wg asked us not to have selectors ... you could change the appearance of things in the document, and thus time things ... <object> doesn't have these restrictions ... not only timing attacks, but tricking with the appearance shepazu: [explains the :visited style restriction] jwatt: a mechanism other than the document reaching in and styling stuff would be sufficient shepazu: for the SVG document to be able to say what things change under what circumstance <ChrisL> itslike passing a bundle of computed style values across the boundary for re-use in styling the image jwatt: essentially what they need for parity with icon fonts, is to be able to get the computed value of the color property shepazu: currently in params you explicitly have a name/value pair ... color=foo, foo=orange ... then in the image you use "foo" ... we could have keywords that say you want to pass in the color and the background-color, then the SVG file says how to use those ... my original proposal was saying name/value pairs, but now you choose the set of values you pass in ... let's say the icon wants to use the background-color of the page as the foreground color in the image ... and the color from the document as some accent in the icon ... on the outside you pass in background-color and color ... on the inside you use those two things whereever you need them heycam: [explains how context-fill and palette variable work in SVG-in-OpenType fonts] krit: people want to use @media queries based on width/height. not sure if passing width/height into that would help with that? Rossen_: you could tie in the vw/vh values to that shepazu: thinking outside the icon use case for a second ... [draws a spark line] ... I want to pass in the values in the spark line to the SVG <img> ... not propose that we do this, but it's the sort of thing you could allow if you support more than just color passing in ... two good things about icons, they take on the context size and color ... but you can't pass in multiple styles, and they aren't responsive ... if the icon is big I want more detail krit: does it need to be <img>? jwatt: for us we want it to be possible with <img> because we are able to optimize <img> that we can't do with <object> ... we want to be able to get rid of as much memory as possible for small devices birtles: if it's <object> you can do it all in script anyway heycam: unless it's cross domain jwatt: our people want parity. so the parameterisation that allows more than just style property mapping sounds like a bigger thing to nail down. shepazu: I have also heard from people wanting to use SVG as an icon that at different sizes you get different crispness things ... when we're trying to solve icons as SVG that's another thing to discus <jwatt> [26]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/intro.html#TermContextElement [26] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/intro.html#TermContextElement jwatt: is it acceptable to have the context element be the <img> referencing the SVG? heycam: I would say only if you opt in to that krit: I agree ChrisL: so maybe foo.svg#context-fill=currentColor krit: can we just say the fill and stroke applied to the image? they don't do anything on image jwatt: it's problematic if you need an opt in ... well not sure how big a problem ... this person wants to be able to change style sheet to say all img are fill:red ... he doesn't want to add something to each <img> element ... I want it to be opt in in the SVG, but not in the embedding document shepazu: I think both ... img { context-fill: currentColor; context-stroke: red; } p { color: blue; } <p> <img> ... jwatt: what about one property that represents the set of properties that can be accessed ... you could have a list of the properties heycam: will-pass-through: color, background-color; krit: you could also list a custom property shepazu: "parameters" might be a good name for it ChrisL: sounds like we have agreement on a principle, can discuss the name jwatt: what about same origin <img>s? can we avoid the opt in from the outside? ... what about not having to write { pass-through: context-fill, ... } for same origin images ... it would be less standardisation effort shepazu: I'd like this to apply to other cases like <use> krit: this is one specific use case from a pool of use cases shepazu: I think the mitigating factor is that what jonathan is asking for the minimal support for context-fill use in the <img> document ... this is not going to restrict us from doing more expansive things in the future ... this is just the simplest case of it ... so it doesn't lock us out of other solutions in the future krit: I tend to agree Rossen_: I'm not sure. I wanted to get back to the opening remarks -- you're after this because of performance and memory pressure from using fonts? jwatt: no, fonts is good. I want embedded SVG closer to the performance of fonts. ... this is so they can do theming of icons without having to go through each icon element Rossen_: so the performance memory relief will come later on jwatt: yes that's a different thing ... if the feature parity barriers are eliminated, then there is value in us pushing memory usage down ChrisL: one obvious benefit from icon fonts is you get them all from one file jwatt: you can use fragment IDs to get that same benefit <ChrisL> yes, agreed using fragment ids krit: presumably you share images across documents. is it safe to share these across? jwatt: that's an implementation detail for us to make sure it's not possible to get the wrong images in other documents ... so for now I want to go ahead with same origin context-fill/context-stroke with <img> being the context element shepazu: short of us thinking through that the expanded uses are ok, we can agree that it will be ok with <img> same origin krit: is there something we need from the HTML WG on this? heycam: probably not krit: worried about others saying no after jwatt goes ahead with this Rossen_: I wouldn't necessarily object to it, I'm just not sure if/how sufficient this is ed: I agree with Rossen. I've used params myself for passing strings e.g. across, that wouldn't be covered by this heycam: would we do this for all of the context-* values? jwatt: would think for consistency it would be all shepazu: maybe just limit it to context-fill/context-stroke for now jwatt: I don't think the spec decisions should be driven by Firefox OS deadlines Rossen_: if the general intent was to probe the temperature for this, I wouldn't stop with proceeding ... with your implementation ... push it to your nightlies, tryi t out ... to reiterate your situation, you want to start driving on perf ... to do this you need to allow this one property passing ... try it out ... I don't think there's strong pushback Summary of Action Items [NEW] ACTION: Cameron Make topic scripts capture actions and issues too. [recorded in [27]http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action02] [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to add math for Catmull-Rom curves to the spec [recorded in [28]http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action03] [NEW] ACTION: Make topic scripts capture actions and issues too. [recorded in [29]http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html#action01] [End of minutes] __________________________________________________________ Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl version 1.138 ([31]CVS log) $Date: 2014-08-23 17:11:50 $ __________________________________________________________ [30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm [31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ Scribe.perl diagnostic output [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.] This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11 Check for newer version at [32]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ scribe/ [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/no don’t want to do that/really do want to do that/ Succeeded: s/cam/heycam/ Succeeded: s/wikipedia/stackoverflow/ Found ScribeNick: krit Found ScribeNick: cabanier Found ScribeNick: heycam Inferring Scribes: krit, cabanier, heycam Scribes: krit, cabanier, heycam ScribeNicks: krit, cabanier, heycam Present: Rossen Jonathan Chris Doug Erik Cameron Tav Dirk Rik Nikos Bria n Konno Agenda: [33]https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/London_2014/Agen da Got date from IRC log name: 23 Aug 2014 Guessing minutes URL: [34]http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html People with action items: cameron make [33] https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/London_2014/Agenda [34] http://www.w3.org/2014/08/23-svg-minutes.html WARNING: Possible internal error: join/leave lines remaining: <heycam> heyheycam has joined #svg WARNING: Possible internal error: join/leave lines remaining: <heycam> heyheycam has joined #svg [End of [35]scribe.perl diagnostic output] [35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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