- From: Nikos Andronikos <nikos.andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2012 07:57:39 +1000
- To: <public-svg-wg@w3.org>
Hi,
Minutes from today's SVG WG telcon are at
http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html
and below as text.
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
07 Jun 2012
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0080.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, nikos, ChrisL
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
nikos
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Dropping CSS paint color keywords
2. [6]Drop SVG paint interface
3. [7]Status of Shepherd integration
4. [8]Should non-scaling-stroke affect marker rendering?
5. [9]SVG 2 status update
6. [10]Making suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw, and
forceRedraw optional in SVG
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 07 June 2012
<scribe> scribenick: nikos
Dropping CSS paint color keywords
<ed>
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0092.ht
ml
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0092.html
shepazu: these are all handled in css now right?
ed: yep
shepazu: So we don't need them - let's drop them
nikos: seems reasonable
ed: as long as we refrence css color spec, that's fine
nikos: css spec says it's an exact copy
shepazu: has both spellings of gray (grey)
Resolve: Reference CSS color keywords and drop them from SVG
Resolution: Reference CSS color keywords and drop them from SVG
Drop SVG paint interface
shepazu: in favor of what?
ed: that's the question
... The closes thing is something out of the CSS object model
spec
... CSS doesn't currently have a way to expose paint
... they probably have a way to expose string valus but not
individual colour values and such
shepazu: svg interface doesn't have a way of exposing things
like css colour values
ChrisL: regarding the previous topic, we agreed we'd add the
colour module as chapter, which includes the colour keywords
and also has some new stuff
... How does the decision affect that?
<shepazu>
[13]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#InterfaceSVGPain
t
[13] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#InterfaceSVGPaint
shepazu: We would still do that but drop the list and reference
CSS
ChrisL: So only have new stuff in there?
shepazu: yep
ChrisL: I was trying to make it self contained
<ChrisL>
[14]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/SVG/modules/color/maste
r/SVGColor.html?rev=1.23;content-type=text%2Fhtml
[14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/SVG/modules/color/master/SVGColor.html?rev=1.23;content-type=text%2Fhtml
ChrisL: Has everything that SVG1 and CSS3 Color had plus new
stuff
shepazu: May change our decision
... This duplicates stuff that's in CSS?
ChrisL: yes
shepazu: Is it possible that we could do this as a CSS module
instead?
ChrisL: We already did, it was called CSS colour.
... it's a Rec
shepazu: what's the benefit?
ChrisL: all the syntax is in one place
... About 50% is new content - compared to what the CSS spec
says
... I'm not opposed to trimming down
<fantasai> Actually, it's REC
ChrisL: At the end there's a complete grammar for colour values
and stuff - but if people want to reference CSS colour that's
fine
... A lot of the stuff from CSS colour was in SVG 1
shepazu: When we review, I think that we are going to have an
easier time if we don't duplicate stuff and only have original
material
... where we've gotten pushback in the past is when we
duplicate CSS
... one thing I noticed - you're using xlink:href, can we just
use href
ChrisL: Bear in mind this was edited about a year ago
... I'm slightly concerned referencing CSS makes it harder to
understand as you have to follow links
shepazu: Could we all reference one location?
ChrisL: Then it gets even more confusing
shepazu: I was thinking of a primer. Ok I withdraw the
suggestion
ChrisL: It would be nice to get rid of the big list becaues
people use a small subset
... We resolved a while ago it's going to be a new chapter
called SVG colour
... lots of people go to the chapter in SVG 1 and then have to
go to other sections to find what they need
shepazu: Might be more informative to name this colour
management
... but not too important to me
ChrisL: I'd push back on that
birtles: Is there anything in the CSS colour that's not in the
SVG?
ChrisL: The idea is that it would have everything
... I'd still like the syntax summaries to have everything
shepazu: I think that's reasonable
<scribe> ACTION: ChrisL Trim out content which is in CSS3
colour and reference CSS3 colour instead [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3304 - Trim out content which is in
CSS3 colour and reference CSS3 colour instead [on Chris Lilley
- due 2012-06-14].
Back to SVG paint interface
<ed>
[16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0093.ht
ml
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0093.html
<shepazu>
[17]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#InterfaceSVGPain
t
[17] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/painting.html#InterfaceSVGPaint
shepazu: What Erik was saying, this provides some things that
CSS doesn't and CSS provides some things this doesn't
... If people find the functionality useful, maybe we could
request it be added to CSS OM
ChrisL: It's not clear whether the CSS OM is being worked on
shepazu: It's not
... we should raise it with them
ed: I think it makes more sense to have it in the CSS OM
ChrisL: Be aware that's opening a whole can of works about
who's maintaing the CSS OM, etc.
... what happens if there's a gradient on the div and you ask
for it's RGB colour?
... is there a way to find out it has a gradient?
... I suspect the answer is 'we don't know, it's not supported
yet'.
<scribe> ACTION: ed to ask the CSS WG what's happening with the
object model [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3305 - Ask the CSS WG what's
happening with the object model [on Erik Dahlström - due
2012-06-14].
Status of Shepherd integration
ChrisL: I don't have anything to report on this. Tav and I were
supposed to work on a manifest that could be imported but I
don't know if that's used in Shepherd
... W3C has a very old version on the test side and the version
that the CSS WG is using is more recent
... don't know if that's a problem at this stage
... I need to talk to Peter Linss
shepazu: We are doing Test the Web forward next Friday
ChrisL: I'll talk to Peter asap
shepazu: Could I join in, I'd like to get up to speed
Should non-scaling-stroke affect marker rendering?
shepazu: My thought is yes, it would be weird if we didn't
... maybe we could add a new property that says don't scale the
marker
nikos: I was thinking exactly the same thing
... is it useful to scale the marker but not the stroke?
shepazu: I can see a use - let's say the marker is my current
location or is something significant on a map
ed: default should be that non-scaling-stroke applies to the
markers too
shepazu: let's say we have circle and triangle alternating,
circle has r=5 triangle has width=10
... if you scale down the line, these things closer and they'd
bump into one another
... if you don't scale the marker
brian: I'm thinking of the use case mentioned, I'm wondering if
that's a separate feature?
<birtles>
[19]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Requirements_for_Map
ping
[19] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Requirements_for_Mapping
brian: when we talked about requirements for mapping we talked
about a feature where you can have a fixed size object that
doesn't scale - for things like current location
... maybe if you want an object not to scale you should use the
feature proposed in the requirements for mapping
ChrisL: We're trying to down play markers in SVG 2 - the single
marker of 'you are here' on a map doesn't have to be done with
a marker
shepazu: So in general do we think that markers should follow
the values of non-scaling stroke?
[general agreement]
shepazu: Maybe we could have an option for changing that but we
need to examine the use cases to see if it makes sense
ChrisL: There's a lot of issues and we don't want to get into
that right now for this
<scribe> ACTION: heycam Specify that non-scaling stroke applies
to markers also [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3306 - Specify that non-scaling
stroke applies to markers also [on Cameron McCormack - due
2012-06-14].
SVG 2 status update
ed: I don't know if there's much to discuss
... most edits are by Dirk and Cameron and they're not here
... Dirk updated some parts of the transform section
... Cameron made some small general changes
Making suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw, and forceRedraw optional in
SVG
<ed>
[21]http://www.w3.org/mid/CAJgFLLv2TvH0xhruyHQCY=ozj6WFw20AAVrD
dzwOH7Wf9CoBWw@mail.gmail.com
[21] http://www.w3.org/mid/CAJgFLLv2TvH0xhruyHQCY=ozj6WFw20AAVrDdzwOH7Wf9CoBWw@mail.gmail.com
ChrisL: So these were added on the understanding that it would
be faster to switch off rendering, do updates, then switch
rendering back on
... Implementations can handle that on their own and this makes
it slower now. is that right?
ed: yes
shepazu: You might have the author making assumptions about how
particular systems will optimise and that's bad long term
ChrisL: Do we need to make it a stub so content works - will
that give any surprises?
ed: suspendRedraw says you can't suspend for an infinite about
of time
ChrisL: So you don't know when it will kick back in ?
ed: yes
ChrisL: So if we make it a stub will it work?
ed: it'll work as well as it does in Firefox and ie - that's
what they have already
... I've been looking at doing the same in Opera
... we should define what value the stub returns
ChrisL: if we remove it completely that might mean that older
content will break
<scribe> ... unknown error methods and such
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: so we can't do that
... we can specify it's a stub that doesn't do anything
... and say not to use it in new content
shepazu: what about forceRedraw?
ed: that's still being discussed on the list - there might be a
usecase
shepazu: Tab was saying there's no way to flush the style
... so it might be useful
... not clear that it does collect everything together and
redraw
ed: I think we should continue to discuss foreceRedraw and see
if there are any more possible use cases
... in any case we need to define what it does - flushing style
for example
... for the other methods are we in agreement that they can be
stubbed out?
Resolution: suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw will be stubbed out
- return value must be specified
... unsuspendRedrawAll will be stubbed out - return value must
be specified
<scribe> ACTION: ed will stub out suspendRedraw,
unsuspendRedraw, unsuspendRedrawAll - return value must be
specified [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3307 - Will stub out suspendRedraw,
unsuspendRedraw, unsuspendRedrawAll - return value must be
specified [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-06-14].
ed: We can come back to forceRedraw
... it seems like it's disconnected from the others
birtles: Firefox flushes styles
... on forceRedraw
ed: it says in svg 1.1 that in forces user agents to redraw all
regions of the viewport that require updating
... I don't know if that's specific enough for testing
... to me it doesn't sound like it has to be a synchronous
operation
... I think it should be defined in more detail if we want it
to something specific
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: ChrisL Trim out content which is in CSS3 colour
and reference CSS3 colour instead [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: ed to ask the CSS WG what's happening with the
object model [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: ed will stub out suspendRedraw, unsuspendRedraw,
unsuspendRedrawAll - return value must be specified [recorded
in [25]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: heycam Specify that non-scaling stroke applies to
markers also [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [27]scribe.perl version
1.136 ( [28]CVS log)
$Date: 2012/06/07 21:55:00 $
__________________________________________________________
[27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43
Check for newer version at
[29]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
[29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/grey (gray)/gray (grey)/
Succeeded: s/favour/favor/
Succeeded: s/explose/expose/
Succeeded: s/that CSS 1/that SVG1 and CSS3 Color/
Succeeded: s/a CR/a Rec/
Succeeded: s/default should be markers scale/default should be that non
-scaling-stroke applies to the markers too/
Found ScribeNick: nikos
Inferring Scribes: nikos
Default Present: Doug_Schepers, ed, birtles, nikos, ChrisL
Present: Doug_Schepers ed birtles nikos ChrisL
Agenda:
[30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0080.h
tml
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0080.html
WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth
Found Date: 07 Jun 2012
Guessing minutes URL:
[31]http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: applies chrisl ed heycam non-scaling specify
stroke that
[31] http://www.w3.org/2012/06/07-svg-minutes.html
End of [32]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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