- From: Rik Cabanier <cabanier@adobe.com>
- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:56:37 -0800
- To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <3087C3EE109D634A82116DB24F8B48450BCE8E@nambx09.corp.adobe.com>
Hello, please find below the minutes from the SVG WG telcon.
http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
26 Jan 2012
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0038.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
+1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Tav,
ChrisL, [Microsoft]
Regrets
Chair
ed
Scribe
cabanier
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]CSS Transforms and the behavior of SVG DOM
2. [6]OpenType and SVG
3. [7]SVG2 Requirements
4. [8]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements
_Input#text-align
5. [9]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements
_Input#xml:id
6. [10]role, rel, rev, about, content, datatype, property,
resource, typeof
7. [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirement
s_Input#display-align
8. [12]buffered rendering
* [13]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 26 January 2012
<krit> Zakim: and me?
<krit> Zakim: who's here
<scribe> scribenick: cabanier
CSS Transforms and the behavior of SVG DOM
<ed>
[14]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#CSSOM_issue
s
[14] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#CSSOM_issues
krit: I'm working on the merged css transform specification
<krit> [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms
[15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms
krit: I found some possible SVG DOM issues
... issue 11
Issue 11: Interaction of SVG DOMs SVGTransformList and SVGTransform
to the CSS property
On transforming the SVG attribute transform' to a presentation
attribute, the interaction of SVG DOM with CSSOM must be clarified.
While an SVG attribute has a one-dimensional hierarchy where the
value can just be influenced by the unique SVGTransformList, CSS had
different cascading. Like described for CSSOm above, it is difficult
to map cascading to the one-dimensional hierarchy, since different
style sheets can affect the style of an element and there for can
have different affects to computed style. Computed itself style
doesn't allow modifications.
krit: how can SVG DOM work with CSS?
... my proposal is to add a new stylesheet
<krit> Follow other presenattion attributes with transform
<krit> Creating new Author style sheet
<krit> the hierarchy of the author style sheet is after UA style
sheets and before other author style sheets
<krit> SVG DOM should reflect the new created style sheet
heycam: this is just make the SVG DOM expose the stylesheet
<heycam> the style sheet for the presentation attributes (the low
specificity one) that is
heycam: on first reading this sounds reasonable
... people might be confused that CSS rules are not reflected in SVG
DOM
... we had a discussion that make the base value the initial value
<ed> it was "inline style" not "initial value", no?
<ChrisL> yes
heycam: reading out the value would get you the animated transform
chrisl: animval is the computed val?
<ChrisL> so the base value reflects the presentation attribute and
the animval reflects the computed value
heycam: basevalue and animval can reflect different thing
krit: animval is the computed value
ed: that makes most sense but I'm concerned about whether that means
a flattened matrix, or if it's a list of matrices
krit: that is not defined at the moment
... it makes most sense to have a list of animated values as well
<ChrisL> agree a tranfrom list is more useful
heycam: it is more useful to inspect to have a list of transform
item rather than a flat matrix
chrisl: you can always create a matrix, but no the other way round
cyril: why is this so different?
... is it because of the cascade?
kris: yes, the transform property has the cascade
heycam: transform is now becoming a presentation attribute and we
have to figure out what that means for the SVG DOM
... there is no access to the CSS dom from SVG. There is no .fill
attribute
krit: there is no animval/baseval to fill
heycam: I agree with Dirk's proposal. It matches what I was thinking
of.
<heycam> I prefer Dirk's suggestion because if you don't use
transform in style="" or in CSS style sheets, then the SVG DOM for
transform works the same as it always has.
heycam: it also works with the animval
... by having animval reflect the computed style, it will looks the
same as before
cyril: does patrick's proposal to turn some attributes into
properties has the same problem ? If so, is the current solution
also applicable?
heycam: yes, we would want a consistent solution
ed: what does 'works with animval' mean?
<ChrisL> yes we do
<ed> issue 12
krit: can we do 3d transform on SVGTransformList?
... we would need new interfaces for perspective, etc
<ChrisL> yes, we would
krit: do we want to extend SVG interfaces to access 3d transforms?
... we would have to specify everything that is in CSS, in SVG as
well
heycam: I don't think it's that much work, since it pretty simple
... otherwise we would have to specify what happens when you read
out the transformlist
krit: I would specify that it's unresolvable. SVG DOM would just
return undefined
... you would access everything with CSS and this would make things
backward compatible
heycam: I guess we'll have similar issue with other issues
... ie by using 'calc' in css
krit: yes, it is a general issue
... I would not develop SVG DOM for these use cases
heycam: yes, maybe we'll use the CSSOM to manipulate
... if we improve the SVG DOM, should we target transform or should
we do that in CSS?
krit: just do it in CSS
heycam: ie accessing width/height of a rectangle
krit: if you have SVG length, you can drop the 'px' but not in CSS
... I think the group should work on allowing that in CSS
heycam: in CSS you can using units, while in SVG you can't
... ie you can use '%' in CSS while in SVG you can't
krit: maybe we should resolve % to pixel in SVG
heycam: that would be possible
... I'm OK with returning unknown type
ed: in practice, people will use the CSSOM
... since if you use the CSS feature, you will want to use that
interface anyway
... we should try to make the CSSOM as good as possible
krit: yes
... I would like to have the same features in CSSOM that we have in
SVG now
... make the CCSS interface such as transformlist live
heycam: does the combined transforms spec define any CSSOM
interfaces?
krit: we have not specified transformlist but have css matrix
heycam: so if you use getcomputedstyle you will get them back?
krit: changes to cssmatrix are reflected in css transform as well.
... css transforms are more complicated than other css features
heycam: this is more a question for the CSS people
chrisl: it's not clear who is editing that.
heycam: glenn is supposed to be editing that
resolution: for issue 11 and 12, we will accept the recommended
solutions (see:
[16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#SVG_DOM_iss
ues)
[16] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Merged_Transforms#SVG_DOM_issues)
OpenType and SVG
krit: the problem are not willing to implement SVG fonts
chrisl: I proposed that we implement only WOFF
... it's very clear that mozilla and microsoft are not going to
implement this
... there is a proposal to add SVG fonts to OpenType
... my feeling is that is longer term than SVG2
heycam: we have an intern working on this.
... SVG glyphs inside OpenType
chrisl: there is no consensus how this format will look like
<krit> [17]https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts
[17] https://wiki.mozilla.org/SVGOpenTypeFonts
heycam: let me give you a link to the bug
<heycam> [18]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286
[18] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719286
heycam: I have never seen that page before
chrisl: me neither
heycam: this looks more like brainstorming
chrisl: this page should be updated with pointers to mailing lists,
etc
heycam: the idea for the intern is to see how this works and report
back
chrisl: I'm worried that the message will be that we already figured
it out
... experimentation is great though. I'm very pleased
... sairus from Adobe is working on this
cabanier: I believe Sairus has a proposal. I can ping him.
<heycam> [19]http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/
[19] http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/
dirk: we need to find a way to have a public discussion ie by a
mailing list
chrisl: I started the community group because people were emailing
many groups
<heycam> [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svgopentype/
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svgopentype/
chrisl: have a central location that is archived is important
... woff encapsulates OpenType
... CSS3 also mandates OT
... we are also going that way
<ChrisL> so if opentype adds this, svg will use it. discussion
should be on the community group
resolution: any discussion should happen on the SVG OpenType group
([21]http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/)
[21] http://www.w3.org/community/svgopentype/)
SVG2 Requirements
<ed>
[22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input
[22] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input
cyril: I will edit the wiki page
<cyril>
[23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#t
he_.3CsolidColor.3E_element
[23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#the_.3CsolidColor.3E_element
[24]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#s
olid-color
[24] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#solid-color
chrisl: it's a single element gradient
... it's for paint servers, that are pointed to by a url
krit: can't this be done with CSS right now?
<ed> <solidColor id="solidMaroon" solid-color="maroon"
solid-opacity="0.7"/> <rect fill="url(#solidMaroon)" .../>
chrisl: not sure. by having the same class and style rule
chris: css animation would select a class, right?
krit: yes
... if you use a selector that is less specific, does the animation
not happen?
... regardless of using this in CSS, people today are working around
this with gradients.
tav: inkscape has a horrible patch to do this with a one stop
gradient
chrisl: a solid color is really what you want to do. SVG 1.1 had it
in there. It seems like a solid feature
<ChrisL> and 1.2T had it too
tav: inkscape would have a much simpler solution if it was in there
<ChrisL> and inkscape needs it
cyril: could inkscape define a color palette with CSS classes?
<ed> so essentially it transforms <linearGradient><stop
stop-color="foobar"/></linearGradient> into <solidColor solid-color
and solid-opacity property="foobar"/>...
tav: inkscape doesn't do classes
<heycam> I think it you couldn't just do this with CSS, since you
either need to have various different style rules for different
properties, so you lose the ability to change the colour in a single
place.
heycam: CSS variables seems to be solving the same use case
chrisl: having named colors
is one of the primary reason for them. This is a very useful
feature.
<ChrisL> it regularises the syntax so that you can use a paint
server for solid as well as radient and pattern fills.
heycam: CSS variables is still far away but it would be good to
avoid the same feature twice
<ChrisL> also, you can animate the url to go from a solid to a
gradient ad back
<ChrisL> its very flexible
ed: this is very simple to implement. It doesn't add much code
resolution: we will add solidColor element to SVG2
[25]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#text
-align
[25] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#text-align
<cyril>
[26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#x
ml:id
[26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id
[27]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:
id
[27] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#xml:id
chrisl: we should drop it
everyone: agreed
resolution: drop XML:id
role, rel, rev, about, content, datatype, property, resource, typeof
chrisl: was added to support RDFa and microdate, but hasn't seen
much use but it is used in HTML
heycam: doesn't exactly match with what HTML5 has since they start
with item
krit: I think it's great but should match HTML5
heycam: HTML5 doesn't require RDFA and microdata
... microdata came with a set of DOM interfaces that we want to
support
chrisl: yes
heycam: scanning the HTML5 spec, I don't see where RDFA is required.
... maybe there is a seperate spec
chrisl: RDFlite is I believe
... it could be that the spec hasn't been updated
resolution: for RDFa and microdata follow what HTML does
[28]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#disp
lay-align
[28] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#display-align
<ed> this depends on <textArea>
chrisl: this is moot since we're following CSS
... not textarea
<ChrisL> its tied to f the 'textArea' element. which we are not
using
resolution: we won't display-align since we won't have textarea
buffered rendering
[29]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#b
uffered-rendering
[29] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Input#buffered-rendering
ed: it's a hint to cache as much as possible
... it's not a requirement
cabanier: this is very useful
krit: I'm fine with it
heycam: I'm concerned about these hints
... like filter-region
ed: I agree
<ed> s/agree/share your concern about misuse of this property, but
it's sometimes needed for specific devices/scenarios/
resolution: after implementor feedback, we agree that buffer
rendering hints are needed
heycam: with CSS transform, you can get pixelated buffers
... would we have a requirement that they should rerender
ed: in most cases you don't want pixels
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl version 1.136
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$Date: 2012/01/26 21:38:29 $
_________________________________________________________
[30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Found ScribeNick: cabanier
Inferring Scribes: cabanier
Default Present: +1.206.734.aaaa, ed, cabanier, heycam, krit, cyril, Ta
v, ChrisL, [Microsoft]
Present: +1.206.734.aaaa ed cabanier heycam krit cyril Tav ChrisL [Micr
osoft]
Agenda: [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMa
r/0038.html
Found Date: 26 Jan 2012
Guessing minutes URL: [34]http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-minutes.html
People with action items:
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0038.html
[34] http://www.w3.org/2012/01/26-svg-minutes.html
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[35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Thursday, 26 January 2012 21:57:54 UTC