- From: Jonathan Borden <jborden@mediaone.net>
- Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:21:16 -0400
- To: <Patrick.Stickler@nokia.com>, <www-rdf-interest@w3.org>
Patrick, > > It is unlikely that we wish to restrict the set of URIs which can > act as signs of concepts to only those URIs which can be constructed > by the concatenation of namespace URI and name -- simply because > we use XML as our serialization mechanism. Fair enough. Syntactically one might create a special form for the QName pair {ns-urireference}localname where localname is null. Perhaps: foo:_ where the "_" localname is reserved for the null localname (and hence the entire URI reference is represented by the namespace URI reference). > > I don't see how you interpret the use of QNames as not being > the use of "namespace#name" forms, as that is the interpretation > imposed upon QNames by XML Schema. Not generally by XML Schema _only_ for the predefined builtin types whose XML Schema definitions have an id="decimal" to assign the URI #decimal to the type xsd:decimal. The problem _in general_ is that the same QName may refer to: an element def an attribute def a complex type def at the _same time_ i.e. <element name="foo"... <attribute name="foo" ... <complexType name="foo" ... are all legal and refered to by "bar:foo" in the _same schema_ ... the URI http://example.org/bar#foo doesn't refer to a particular definition ... sigh. > > Furthermore, QName prefixes only have meaning within a single > instance (or within the scope of a single element if defined > for that element) and therefore cannot serve as identifiers > beyond such syntactic boundaries. RDF uses QNames differently than XML Schema, agreed. I am just saying that RDF uses URIs primarily (with the QName being a syntactic shorthand) but the XML Schema uses QNames _primarily_ (with a URI only sometimes available) > > Thus any given namespace plus name pair in any given > serialization does not > constitute the common meaning that that syntactic form serves to > represent, but must be mapped to that common "sign" associated with > the abstract concept. to me qname := <URIref,name> and on that basis is equally able to identify 'concepts'. The "name" _is_ somewhat redundant when one has a fragment identifier, but one can compose a URI reference <URIreference,fragmentid> -> URIreference in a similar fashion to when <absoluteURI,relativeURI> -> absoluteURI The RDDL Java API handles such resolution. > > > > > > > Claim 2: A name within a given namespace does not equate to a URI > > > reference of that name within any content dereferencable from the > > > namespace URI reference. > > > > > > I.e. "namespace" + "name" != "namespace#name". > > > > I suppose it depends on what you expect the "name" to reference. > > > > I consider this a bug not a feature. > > Eh? A fragment in a URI reference is specific to the MIME content > type of the data that is accessible from the URI. I strongly consider _that_ a bug. There very much needs to be a MIME type _independent_ fragment identifier syntax (e.g. http://www.openhealth.org/RDDL/fragment-syntax) That means that > any ontology defined using signs which are URI references constructed > by the combination of namespace URI and name with intervening # > are bound to the syntax of a given MIME content type. ugh, ugh, ugh (that's gorilla speak for "i really don't like that!") > > Furthermore, just how do you handle clearly broken URI refs such as > the following: > > "http://foo.com/bar.html#boo" + "bas" -> "http://foo.com/bar.html#boo#bas" > > Eh? > > I again assert: "namespace" + "name" != "namespace#name" assuming XML and fragment ids identify IDs within the document, the composition works as such: "http://foo.com/bar.html#boo" + "bas" -> "http://foo.com/bar.html#bas" > > > > This is a mess. > > And the mess is because, due to the fact that most folks equate URI to > URL and URL to HTTP URL and furthermore sincerely wanting and needing > that namespace URIs actually dereference to something recognizable and > concrete, they assumed that "namespace" + "name" == "namespace#name" > and that "namespace" is a URL and *not* a URL reference. > > And to make RDF work, added the hack "{URL}#" suffixing the '#' on the > end so that the concatenation would create (presumably but unreliably) > a URL reference that might be dereferencable. but concat _still_ doesn't work see above. > > Yes. The real situation is a mess -- but only because the presumed > automatic mapping of namespace and name to some combined URI does > not in fact work for arbitrary namespace URI references and arbitrary > URI scheme and MIME content type fragment syntaxes. > > We just need to add the explicit mapping mechanism that *does* work. I completely agree. > > I don't think abandonment of URIs for RDF resource identity > would be a good think (I actually think it would be catastrophic). which "resource" are we discussing? the one identified by a URI, or the one identified by a URI reference ... the same URI reference whose syntax is MIME type dependent ... but the resource is not identified by dereferencing. so where is it written down exactly _what is_ a "resource" as defined and used by RDF ... certainly not the same resource as defined by RFC 2396 ... what is this 'thing' we have placed on a pedestal? > > > > Why not "daml:equivalentTo" or "rdfs:isDefinedBy"? > > Firstly, the syntactic to semantic mapping (i.e. serialization > to triples) is IMO the domain of RDF, not RDF Schema or DAML > and therefore should be fundamental to the RDF spec and the > solution embodied in every compliant RDF parser. then the RDF spec needs alot of work, beyond simple mapping. > > One needs a construct such as the proposed rdf:Map element > that binds the multiple syntactic components to a single > resource identity. Until that is done, RDF Schema and > DAML (or any other valid RDF ontology) are useless. Eh? if you mean to say that a function rdf:Map(qname) is provided which gives us a URI reference from a QName, then I agree, and as you suggest it is a very nice idea to provide a case by case override of the default behavior. -Jonathan
Received on Tuesday, 12 June 2001 08:23:10 UTC