MathML Full Meeting: 30 Oct, 2025

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bert Bos
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Murray Sargent
   - Patrick Ion

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-regrets>Regrets
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-action-items>Action Items
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-286-operator-spacing-adjacent-to-lt-mtext-gt-286-a->2.
Operator spacing adjacent to <mtext> #286
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/286>

(remove mtext from space-like elements?)

*ACTION:* MuS will look to see what characters word generates when you
enter spaces.

*ACTION:* NS: Create a core issue and a full issue to define mtext to be
space like if it contains only Unicode spacing characters.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-544-544-add-time-and-date-properties-a->3.
#544 Add time and date properties <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/544>

*CONSENSUS:* NS: Put time and date properties into the spec. Put a "needs
spec change" label on this issue.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-4-other-issues->4. Other issues?

PL wants to bring the Table of Suggested speech Templates for Unicode
Characters <https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/unicode-speech/> into the
spec issue 546 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/546>

*ACTION:* PL: Add text to the full spec that links to the Table of
Suggested speech Templates for Unicode Characters. Put the link in the full
spec next to the concept list.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-agenda>Agenda
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-dc-mathml-in-tagged-pdf-in-firefox-a-href-https-bugzilla-mozilla-org-show_bug-cgi-id-1937438-https-bugzilla-mozilla-org-show_bug-cgi-id-1937438-a->DC:
MathML in tagged pdf in Firefox
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1937438

DC: Firefox now supports tagged math in PDF in Firefox's nightly build.

DC: Earlier, only Acrobat and Foxit could do this.

NS: I can now encourage JAWS to read tagged pdf.

DC: They are using PDF.JS, which is an open-source JavaScript library
developed by Mozilla that allows web developers to render PDF documents
directly in the browser using HTML5 and JavaScript (Copilot).
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-charter-extension>Charter Extension

NS: We have the charter extension for six months and can get another six
months.

BB: The announcement of the extension is here
<https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2025OctDec/0023.html>.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-286-operator-spacing-adjacent-to-lt-mtext-gt-286-a->2.
Operator spacing adjacent to <mtext> #286
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/286>

(remove mtext from space-like elements?)

DC: The Full spec section 3.2.7.4 defines space-like elements.

NS: Mtext could contain things like, if and only if, or if-then statements
which are not space-like because they have meaning. Throwing them away
would be a bad idea.

NS: Maybe 50% of the mtexts contain non-breaking spaces.

NS believes many of these come from MathType.

*ACTION:* MuS will look to see what characters word generates when you
enter spaces.

NS: We cannot completely eliminate mtext as space-like. We can leave it as
it is, or refine it by saying that mtext with spaces is the only mtext that
is space-like.

DC: Defining what white space is can be difficult.

*ACTION:* NS: Create a core issue and a full issue to define mtext to be
space like if it contains only Unicode spacing characters.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-544-544-add-time-and-date-properties-a->3.
#544 Add time and date properties <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/544>

NS: Add a property to identify something as a time or date so it can be
spoken correctly.

NS: Times and dates have many formats. To be spoken correctly, they must be
identified as a time or date. These are properties are in the same realm as
units.

*CONSENSUS:* NS: Put time and date properties into the spec. Put a "needs
spec change" label on this issue.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-4-other-issues->4. Other issues?

PL wants to bring the Table of Suggested speech Templates for Unicode
Characters <https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/unicode-speech/> into the
spec issue 546 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/546>

PL: The question is how to include this in the spec, what to reference. So,
I think we agree that this is non-normative. It will probably be living,
kind of independent of the spec, or at least have more fine-grained
releases, with possibly contributions from outside for other languages.

DC: For cases like this, we actually reference a GitHub page for
contributing to this. We sort of basically say, edit the YAML.

NS: Well it will not always be in GitHub. We want to publish it somewhere
in W3C space.

DC: For the moment, it would be helpful to have it in GitHub. It gives us a
lot more flexibility.

PL: GitHub works perfectly, but: one, it's for techies, and two, it's
temporary.

NS to BB,: Do the other groups have ancillary non-normative parts to the
spec that they store in w3c space and not in GitHub?

BB Yes.

BB: You can put anything in a note, it will be published, it's not a
recommendation, but it's published as if it were a recommendation.

PL: Do You want to make it an appendix?

NS: No. It would be too big.

NS: So I think it makes a lot of sense to keep things like the concept
list, the properties list, and this Unicode character list, and whatever
other lists we have outside of the spec, and just reference them as
non-normative things in some chapter, just describing where they are. These
are suggestions on how to do things.

DC: The core concepts are more normative and should be put into the spec.

DC: Things that change frequently should be put in GitHub.

From Patrick D F Ion to everyone: There’s the difference between GitHub.com
and GitHub.io.

DC: Okay, well, we should have an action to add some text to the spec
somewhere that links to the Table of Suggested speech Templates for Unicode
Characters.

*ACTION:* PL: Add text to the full spec that links to the Table of
Suggested speech Templates for Unicode Characters. Put the link in the full
spec next to the concept list. Make a pull request so people can examine
the request.

PI: There's also the difference between GitHub.com and github.io where we
are putting things already, and where the references are.

DC: You reference .io if you want people to read it, and .com if you want
people to edit it, because that's how GitHub works.

NS: There are non-English Unicode characters in MathCAT. You could grab
them for your table, but that is currently low priority.

NS: I gave you six or seven different translations.

DC: I have only English in the table now.

DC: I think that, In principle, it ought to have more than English.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-zoom-meeting-summary-10-30-2025>Zoom Meeting
Summary 10/30/2025 <https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-summary>Summary

The team discussed ongoing computer issues and potential solutions,
including administrative access changes and the implementation of new
features in Firefox Nightly. They reviewed their work on MathML
specifications, discussing the handling of mtext elements and the addition
of properties to better manage time and date formats in Braille code. The
group also addressed the generation of language lists from Mathcat and
agreed on how to handle non-normative content and external references in
their specification, including the addition of links to current speech
templates and language lists.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-mathml-implementation-and-extensions>MathML
Implementation and Extensions

The group discussed several key topics, including Firefox's added support
for tagged MathML in PDFs, which David announced had been implemented in
Firefox Nightly. They also discussed the handling of mtext elements in
MathML, with Neil and David agreeing to create separate issues to refine
the definition of space-like elements to include only Unicode whitespace
characters. Bert mentioned that an extension for our work had been approved
for 6 months, with the possibility of another extension after that. The
conversation ended with a brief discussion about adding time and date
properties to the properties list to better handle various date formats.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-braille-time-and-date-properties>Braille Time
and Date Properties

Neil proposed adding properties that would recognize times as times and
dates as dates, no matter what formats the times and dates used. Paul
expressed concerns about relying on ISO 8601 due to its undefined parts and
past issues with auto-renaming in Excel. Neil suggested avoiding complex
mathematical representations of times and dates in favor of simpler
notations to prevent misinterpretation by speech engines.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-unicode-table-collaboration-plan>Unicode
Table Collaboration Plan

The group discussed ways to include links to a table of Unicode characters
into the full spec. This table will be non-normative and potentially have
independent releases with contributions from outside sources. Paul
suggested using a link to the Math homepage for inviting collaboration,
rather than hard-coding GitHub links, as GitHub might not be used in the
future.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-specification-content-management-strategy>Specification
Content Management Strategy

The group discussed how to handle non-normative content and external
references in their specification. They agreed to keep non-frozen content
like lists and examples on GitHub, while including references to these in
the spec. David will add a link to the current speech templates for Unicode
characters in the spec, like we did for the concepts list in the intent
section. The group also clarified the difference between GitHub.com (for
editing) and github.io (for viewing) links. Neil suggested reviewing the
YAML file generation process to make it more user-friendly before allowing
edits.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-language-list-development-discussion>Language
List Development Discussion

The team discussed generating lists of Unicode character names in different
languages. David explaining he created the English list by modifying YAML
files manually rather than using a script. While there's potential to
automatically generate new columns for additional languages, David
expressed reluctance to implement this due to the complexity of handling
different language variants and conditional queries. Paul suggested adding
French and German to the list, though Neil noted these languages are still
in development. The team agreed to add a paragraph to the spec linking to
the current list, with Neil indicating he hopes to release a CR this year.