Minutes: MathML Full Meeting, 13 March, 2025

Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Murray Sargent
   - David Carlisle
   - Patrick Ion
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Bruce Miller
   - Stella Vouthsina
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Bert Bos

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
aAnnouncements/Updates/Progress reports

Next week, on Thursday March 13, our intent meeting will begin one hour
earlier in Europe due to the time change.

DG: There is an upcoming MathML talk at FOSS ASIA:
https://eventyay.com/e/4c0e0c27/session/9638, aimed at introductory level
overview. Feel free to forward to anyone who may be interested.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-a->
2. #181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of
(maligngroup/) and (malignmark/) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

(updates?)

ACTION: DC: My proposal is to keep the specification of maligngroup and
malignmark as it is, except simplify the polyfill with an algorithm based
upon mtd and extra columns.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-385-385-comments-on-chapter-3-a->
3. #385: comments on chapter 3 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/385>

(updates/new thoughts on how to handle examples?)

No updates.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-4-deyan-moritz-ideas-for-intent-open-workflow>4
Deyan/Moritz ideas for Intent Open workflow

CONSENSUS DG and MoS should proceed with their idea of making a web
interface for contributing concepts to Intent Open.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-5-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-527-527-intent-or-anything-else-for-forced-pause-a->
5 #527: intent (or anything else) for forced pause
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/527>

ACTION: In issue 527, DC will add the comment: "Following a decision of the
WG at the call of 2025-03-06 :pause-[short|medium|long|xlong] have been
added to the open properties list

https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-open-properties/#Pause " DC will
close issue 527.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-6-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-525-525-equation-numbers-a->
6. #525: Equation Numbers <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/525>

(update)

ACTION: Issue 525 will be our first issue in our March 13 intent meeting.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-1-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

Next week, on Thursday March 13, our intent meeting will begin one hour
earlier in Europe due to the time change.

DG: There is an upcoming MathML talk at FOSS ASIA:
https://eventyay.com/e/4c0e0c27/session/9638, aimed at introductory level
overview. Feel free to forward to anyone who may be interested.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-1-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-a->
2. #181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of
(maligngroup/) and (malignmark/) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

(updates?)

PI: The codepen examples did not show well on my phone.

DC: We should check the actual documents because codepen is not designed
for the phone.

DC: We have talked about having a polyfill which we just write it in terms
of extra columns using mtd.

DC: Write down, in the spec, the directions for the polyfill.

NS: So, for historical context, one of the reasons for having maligngroup
and malignmark, was if you spread something across a table accessibility
wise, you've kind of lost that it's an equation. But now with intent you
can pull it all back.

NS: We do assert, in the current draft, that you can use multiple "mtd's"
instead of alignmark.

MUS: What are we doing with system of equations with larger equation
heights? The grid approach seems to be able to fix the vertical alignments.

NS: That is another question.

ACTION: DC: My proposal is to keep the specification of maligngroup and
malignmark as it is, except simplify the polyfill with an algorithm based
upon mtd and extra columns.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-1-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-385-385-comments-on-chapter-3-a->
3. #385: comments on chapter 3 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/385>

(updates/new thoughts on how to handle examples?) no update
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-1-4-deyan-moritz-ideas-for-intent-open-workflow>4
Deyan/Moritz ideas for Intent Open workflow

DG: The idea is to make a web interface for contributing concepts to Intent
Open. So without changing the underlying contribution model from GitHub,
the idea is that these concepts live in a structured YAML file in the
repository of the W3C, and the official way is to make a pull request to
that yaml file. But in the open list, we already have a thousand entries,
and we expect them to go up to 10,000 entries. Editing this file by hand is
difficult and error prone. Less technical people could use the interface to
enter intent concepts.

DG thinks they could be finished by mid-August 2025, at which time DG and
MoS will demonstrate the interface to the group.

MoS: You can check to see that multiple concepts do not point to the same
source and thus not have the same concept entered more than once.

DC: So I think we can advertise it. Basically, as soon as you've got
something that you want to advertise, I don't think there'd be a problem to
add here.

DC: link to current open list
https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-open-concepts/

DC: We don't have to put the interface into the spec, we just point to the
result.

DG: The final YAML format is not established. We can change the table
format.

NS: I am not sure how you can prevent people from entering the same concept
multiple times. If you look to see if multiple concepts are pointing to the
same link, there could be many entries on each page of where the link is
pointing.

BM: The naming thing is indeed quite sticky. Whoever gets in there first
and gives, you know, elliptic function SM, sort of wins and then the next
guy, oh, well, this isn't actually the same function It has the same name,
but it's really a different function.

From Deyan Ginev to everyone: To Bruce's point:
https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/concept-lists/ discusses how to maintain
MathML concept lists.

PI: You could add a "math subject classification" column to the YAML table
to help with the problem of having multiple names for the same concept.

From Deyan Ginev to everyone: multiple names for the same concept has a
nice background reading in the "alias" issue:
https://github.com/w3c/mathml-docs/issues/40

DC: Used aliases to show a concept having multiple names. I kept the
aliases open because I had in mind that open was like an open field of
suggestions for anybody and there were suggestions for possible future
additions to core Whereas for core I took the view that the core list does
not currently have aliases, but the open list does.

CONSENSUS DG and MoS should proceed with their idea of making a web
interface for contributing concepts to Intent Open.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-1-5-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-527-527-intent-or-anything-else-for-forced-pause-a->
5 #527: intent (or anything else) for forced pause
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/527>

NS: If we are reading two equations, we want a pause in the speech to
separate one equation from the following equation.

DC proposed a pause property.

From Deyan Ginev to everyone: :silent is equivalent to "_" which is great

DC: You can "pause" before you do something.

DC: Interpret pause as always pausing before doing something.

DC: Pause is an attribute of the column. Before reading this column, pause.
It is associated with the mtd entry.

NS: Let us make "pause" an open property so we can experiment with it and
see how it works.

DC: It would be easier if we got "pause" into core. When we are selling
MathML to implementers, it is easier if we do not have to point to many
non-standard things that are working and should be implemented. So put as
much as possible in core.

ACTION: In issue 527, DC will add the comment: "Following a decision of the
WG at the call of 2025-03-06 :pause-[short|medium|long|xlong] have been
added to the open properties list

https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-open-properties/#Pause " DC will
close issue 527.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-3#cp-md-1-6-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-525-525-equation-numbers-a->
6. #525: Equation Numbers <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/525>

(update)

NS: We need a solution to make equation labels.

ACTION: This will be our first issue in our March 13 intent meeting.