Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 10 April, 2025

Attendees:

   - David Carlisle
   - Louis Maher
   - Bruce Miller
   - Bert Bos
   - Murray Sargent
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-regrets>Regrets

   - Neil Soiffer

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-action-items>action Items
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

There is a core meeting on Monday, 14 April.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-2-anyone-willing-to-take-on-some-spec-or-code-writing-tasks->2.
Anyone willing to take on some spec or code writing tasks?
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-there-are>There are

9 open issues with the "needs spec update" label.
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/labels/need%20specification%20update>
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-522-nested-math-in-token-elements-issue-522-a->nested
math in token elements: issue 522 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/522>

ACTION: DC will handle issue 522.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-498-xsd-not-allowing-lt-semantics-lt-element-as-child-of-lt-apply-gt-element-issue-498-a->XSD
not allowing <semantics<-element as child of <apply>-element: issue 498
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/498>

ACTION: DC: It’s a bug and I will handle it.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-449-intent-properties-ordering-amp-references-issue-449-a->Intent
Properties: ordering & references: issue 449
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449>

ACTION: DC: This belongs to NS.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-247-spec-should-specify-what-char-to-use-for-accents-lines-issue-247-a->Spec
should specify what char to use for accents/lines: issue 247:
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/247>

No resolution on issue 247.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-issue-181-a->MathML
4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of (maligngroup/) and
(malignmark/): issue 181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-180-decimalpoint-quot-value-definition-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-issue-180-a->decimalpoint"
value definition MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation
of (maligngroup/) and (malignmark/): issue 180
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>

ACTION: DC will make a proposal for issues 181 and 180.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-dg-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-178-make-mathml-attributes-ascii-case-insensitive-issue-178-a->
DG Make MathML attributes ASCII case-insensitive: issue 178:
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/178>

ACTION: Issue 178 belongs to DG.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-there-are>There are

5 open issues with the "need polyfill" label
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues?q=is%3Aopen%20label%3A%22need%20polyfill%22>
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-100-simplification-of-the-semantics-element-issue-100-a->Simplification
of the element: issue 100 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/100>

ACTION: DG: So semantics content is the first child, presentation is the
second. The polyfill should move them around to render them. Needs a
polyfill.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-75-deprecate-remove-namespaces-length-values-issue-75-a->Deprecate/Remove
namespaces length values: issue 75 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/75>

ACTION: DC: So the polyfill will just have to find all the places where
names of lengths have been used and replace them with numbers. When the
labels are gone, issue 75 can be closed. Assign to NS.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-27-remove-deprecate-subscriptshift-superscriptshift-attributes-of-msubsup-msup-msub-issue-27-a->Remove/Deprecate
subscriptshift/superscriptshift attributes of msubsup/msup/msub: Issue 27
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/27>

ACTION: DC: I will put some examples in issue 27.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-agenda>Agenda
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

There is a core meeting on Monday, 14 April.

DC: We shall be discussing links.

MuS: I think keeping the href is a great idea. And, you know, we could have
a little code to translate href into an <a>.

DC: Well, we're going to have that anyway because like in the NAG, I have
several tens of thousands of href which aren't going to get supported. So
I'll need to polyfill those anyway.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-2-anyone-willing-to-take-on-some-spec-or-code-writing-tasks->2.
Anyone willing to take on some spec or code writing tasks?
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-2-there-are>There are

9 open issues with the "needs spec update" label.
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/labels/need%20specification%20update>
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-522-nested-math-in-token-elements-issue-522-a->nested
math in token elements: issue 522 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/522>

ACTION: DC will handle issue 522.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-498-xsd-not-allowing-lt-semantics-lt-element-as-child-of-lt-apply-gt-element-issue-498-a->XSD
not allowing <semantics<-element as child of <apply>-element: issue 498
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/498>

ACTION: DC: It’s a bug and I will handle it.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-449-intent-properties-ordering-amp-references-issue-449-a->Intent
Properties: ordering & references: issue 449
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449>

ACTION: DC: This belongs to NS.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-284-make-the-sample-presentation-of-strict-content-use-intent-issue-284-a->Make
the sample presentation of Strict Content use intent: issue 284
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/284>

DC wrote: Closed at meeting as enough examples added.

DC: This was closed as completed.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-247-spec-should-specify-what-char-to-use-for-accents-lines-issue-247-a->Spec
should specify what char to use for accents/lines: issue 247:
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/247>

DC: All the accents have multiple Unicode symbols. Some are stretchy.

DC: Use non-combining accents for accents.

DC: NS needs to know how to speak the symbols, and generators need to know
what symbol to write. It could be browser dependent.

DC: Fred's argument was… it just defers it all to Unicode. And of course,
Unicode doesn't say anything about the non-combining ones very much. This
problem has existed since MathML one.

DC: It would be good to solve this issue.

BM: We need agreement from the browser people.

DC: There is no good answer, but combining characters is a bad idea. If we
don't tell them which character to use, they'll use whatever character that
happens to be on the keyboard.

No resolution on issue 247.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-issue-181-a->MathML
4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of (maligngroup/) and
(malignmark/): issue 181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

DC has a pull request on 181.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-180-decimalpoint-quot-value-definition-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-issue-180-a->decimalpoint"
value definition MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation
of (maligngroup/) and (malignmark/): issue 180
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>

DC: So the current proposal for the malign is to convert them into tables
so every group becomes a pair of right-left sells. And all you have to do
when you hit the place where the alignment is you close every element up to
the current table cell, I made that right aligned, and then open them all
again and open a new cell that's left aligned and then carry on.

DC: Well, there's no natural method of aligning on decimal points in
tables. Obviously, you can pad with spaces or do other things, or you can
always split it by hand.

DC: It depends on what we do with maligngroup and malignmark. I mean, the
alternative is not to allow the decimal point to be specified.

DG: This is a good time to mention that if you have a large number, you can
have comma separators for the thousands of dots for the decimal points.

ACTION: DC will make a proposal for issues 180 and 181.

DG: In issue 180, DG commented: A question I had while we reviewed the
issue in our meeting on April 10, 2025, was whether we can retain the
feature while losing the "groupalign" attribute. Some of the examples that
used more element markup, with additional <malignmark> or additional <mtd>.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-dg-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-178-make-mathml-attributes-ascii-case-insensitive-issue-178-a->
DG Make MathML attributes ASCII case-insensitive: issue 178:
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/178>

ACTION: Issue 178 belongs to DG.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-3-there-are>There are

5 open issues with the "need polyfill" label
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues?q=is%3Aopen%20label%3A%22need%20polyfill%22>
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-100-simplification-of-the-semantics-element-issue-100-a->Simplification
of the element: issue 100 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/100>

DC: What's the actual proposal here?

DC: There is already an agent style sheet that just makes it render the
first element.

DG: If I'm following in the case where semantics has a first child that is
not presentation, but has a presentation child somewhere else. We need a
polyfill that moves it to the first child, essentially.

ACTION: DG: So semantics content is the first child, presentation is the
second. The polyfill should move them around to render them. Needs a
polyfill.

####Deprecate/Remove namespaces length values: issue 75
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/75>

ACTION: DC: So the polyfill will just have to find all the places where
names of lengths have been used and replace them with numbers. When the
labels are gone, issue 75 can be closed. Assign to NS.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-27-remove-deprecate-subscriptshift-superscriptshift-attributes-of-msubsup-msup-msub-issue-27-a->Remove/Deprecate
subscriptshift/superscriptshift attributes of msubsup/msup/msub: Issue 27
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/27>

DC: I think one of the issues here is that these polyfills were never
written because we were hoping that some of this functionality was actually
getting to core and wouldn't need to be polyfilled.

DC: These polyfills need to be done for CR.

DC: But I don't feel we can assign to anybody yet. If anybody's wanting to
write some JavaScript That might be an easy one to look at. Actually, that
one's more of a CSS issue.

DC: The ones that evolve into inserting CSS end up being very browser
dependent because obviously the actual underlying layout between Safari and
Chrome and Firefox are quite different. So if you just tried to just keep
the layout, just say you want the superscript to be raised two points more
You probably will have to do it differently in all the browsers.

DG: What I'm missing for that issue is a fleshed-out example using them.

DC: This is about how to tweak how much superscripts go up and down.

ACTION: DC: I will put some examples in issue 27.