Minutes: MathML Full meeting 27 March, 2025

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Bruce Miller
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Bert Bos

<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-regrets>Regrets
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-action-items>action Items
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-a->2.
#181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of
(maligngroup/) and (malignmark/) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

(updates?)

*ACTION:* DC will work on issue 181 this week.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-4-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-523-523-missing-property-to-indicate-needed-grouping-a->4
#523: Missing property to indicate needed grouping?
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/523>

*ACTION:* NS wants to experiment more with this issue. Issue 523 is
deferred for the moment.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-agenda>Agenda
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

PL: In Europe, everyone is worried about the soon to be applied
accessibility directive.

NS: I believe it will be active in June.

PL: Some people thought that having MathML would solve the problem for math
access.

PL: NVDA with MathCAT gives a degree of math access.

NS: So does JAWS and MathCAT. MathCAT is part of the JAWS Early Adopter
program.

PL: How about the MAC?

NS: Apple has its own math access software. Apple does not use intent.

PL: Wiris will not allow intent. Wiris removes intent from the math they
read. Once we get a CR, we should bring this up with Wiris and Apple.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-a->2.
#181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of
(maligngroup/) and (malignmark/) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

(updates?)

*ACTION:* DC will work on issue 181 this week.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-2-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-433-433-include-or-not-a-sample-set-of-default-conversion-from-plain-mathml-to-mathml-with-intent-a->2.2
#433 include (or not) a sample-set of default conversion from plain-MathML
to MathML-with-intent <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/433>

(discuss need for "Common" for "intent-default") -- any progress?

DC: A pull request for this was merged, adding :legacy alongside :common
and :literal in the spec, and descriptions in the mathml-docs core
properties repository.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-2-5-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-388-scriptlevel-and-displaystyle-issue-388-a->2.5
scriptlevel and displaystyle (issue 388)
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/388>

DC has a pull request <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/531> on this
issue. Neil made a small typo comment, which has been fixed, hopefully this
can now be merged.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-120-120-remove-deprecate-simplify-the-ms-element-a->3:
#120: Remove/deprecate/simplify the ms element
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/120>

(both core and full -- where are we on this?)

No updates.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-1-4-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-523-523-missing-property-to-indicate-needed-grouping-a->4
#523: Missing property to indicate needed grouping?
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/523>

NS: Summary: Some intents are formed from linear notations and some from 2d
notations. That information is lost when intent is used and so the need to
verbally group the intent (such as would be done for "fraction x plus 1
over y end fraction") is lost.

NS: In a two-dimensional equation, you need to know where you are since
parentheses may not be provided.

NS: You tend to want to say, oh, I'm in the numerator. I'm in the
denominator. I'm in the base. I'm in the exponent. I'm in the radicand. I'm
in the index.

NS: If it is linear, it is grouped with parentheses.

NS: You could come up with a set of names for various parts of 2-d
equations.

NS: You need some way to know where you are in a 2-D equation.

From Deyan Ginev to everyone: What are the preferred readers for these 3
examples:

a / b - c a / (b - c) (a / b) - c

DC suggested having a 'group' or 'fence' property to show you where you are.

DC: The suggestion was that ... would be an invisible mfenced analogous to
invisibletimes that in visual layout would be a normal mrow but gave a hint
that AT might (or should?) voice the start and end.

DG: I don't understand the problem exactly. An intent function application
fun(arg1,..., argn) has implied groups for both the outer expression, as
well as groups for each of the arguments. Whether those should be vocalized
in practice likely depends on AT speech style preferences, as well as the
size of the subexpressions. The :infix property doesn't really make that
inference any harder, an AT could choose to voice out for plus:infix(a,b,c)
"start subexpression" a plus b plus c "end subexpression" without any
additional markup hints.

*ACTION:* NS wants to experiment more with this issue. Issue 523 is
deferred for the moment.

BM: If it takes you a relatively long time to speak something, then you can
decide to put a start and end tag on it.

NS: You cannot use time as a size parameter because people read it at
different speeds.

PL said that one individual claims that people want spatial information. PL
believes that the blind, like LM, do not want or need spatial information.
The blind are brought up on reading and hearing linear equations even if
originally the equations were printed in a 2-D format.
<https://cryptpad.fr/#cp-md-0-5-anyone-willing-to-take-on-some-spec-or-code-writing-tasks->5.
Anyone willing to take on some spec or code writing tasks?

NS said that DC had done the lion's share of the spec updates. NS wanted to
encourage others to also make updates.

NS said that the issues were resolved for "needs spec update".

DG: How do you propose that happens? Do I write an email to David and
bookmark something that he agrees to?

DC: You can make a PR. I mean, it's best to let somebody know about your
work. You don't want two people working on the same issue. The process is
that you make a PR either in a fork or in a branch and then it can be
discussed in the PR.

DC: If there's an issue there that you feel like you could write some text
for, just say you'll do it and then make a PR and people then can argue
about it or accept it or whatever, then just merge. That's the easiest way
to do it.

DC: I'm not a gatekeeper on this part.