Minutes: MathML Full Meeting 12 Sept, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Bert Bos
   - Murray Sargent

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Regrets

   - Paul Libbrecht

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Items
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-2-deprecation-decisions-final-remarks->2.
Deprecation decisions -- final remarks?

   - MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of and issue
   181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

NS: We will postpone this discussion until next week.

*ACTION* NS will add to issue 25 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/25>
saying that there was no agreement on deprecation of mglyph but, in the web
context, mglyph should be replaced with img. Once this language is added,
issue 25 can be closed.

*RESOLUTION:* We keep maction and we make actiontype optional to match
core. DC will make these text changes in issue 501
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/501>, then he will close issue 501.
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Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

   - TPAC is 23-27 Sept. Schedule and registration is at
   www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/. Registration is open until 13 Sept.
      - Breakout sessions: https://github.com/w3c/tpac2024-breakouts/issues.
      Sept 15 deadline for proposals.
   - W3C Groups Community Survey 2024:
      - W3C Members: https://gzobeteisdd.typeform.com/to/uaESY6Q8
      - Invited Experts: https://gzobeteisdd.typeform.com/to/TeoUTslq

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Deprecation decisions -- final remarks?

   - MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of and issue
   181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

DC: We could have a strongly worded phrase that this isn't in core, and you
might not want to do this at all.

MuS: I was impressed at how much simpler it is to use maligngroup than it
is to do the tables with alignment. It's just a lot less stuff to stick in
there.

DC: Writing complicated things is easier with malign than using tables.

DC: Simple cases can be done with table cells. Probably all cases can be.
The more nesting you have, the more complicated the table markup becomes.

DC: I would vote for just strongly saying, it's not in core.

NS: So, the issue with this one is, it's such a large part of the spec for
something that's not implemented. It's a shame to have the spec bloated by
this.

DC: Removing it might break office.

MuS: MathJax is ignoring Maligngroup and Malignmark.

MuS: Firefox also ignores them.

DC: Maligngroup and malignmark are not implemented anywhere except in Word.

NS: They were in full for a long time.

MuS: Malign is not in core. It is in full.

Ns: We do not have a resolution for this.

NS: We will postpone this discussion until next week.

   - mglyph comments issue 25 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/25>?

NS: The mglyph element is not implemented in browsers.

NS: Four people wanted to deprecate mglyph, and two were neutral.

(From the intent meeting of 9/5/2024: deprecate mglyph and replace it with
img or some other tag?

To Deprecate mglyph: PI, PL, MuS, and NS.

MoS and BM were neutral.

BM favors deprecation.

DC: Do not deprecate but remove. It is two long between MathML versions. We
should remove mglyph now.

NS: We can say that mglyph has been removed and img is a good replacement
for mglyph.

ns: In Word what do you allow as tokens.

MuS: Word can use arbitrary xml.

NS: On the web we can allow img and svg.

MuS can use control c in his fledgling intent editor and copy and convert
img into text.

MuS: He would like to manipulate img with cut and paste.

DC: Mglyph is gone from core. It is still in full.

NS: No one uses it. Get rid of it.

DC: Mglyph is implemented in xslt and MathML

NS: Just change the name space and change mglyph to img.

DC: We should tell people to avoid mglyph because it is not in core.

NS: The point of deprecation is to get people to stop using the deprecated
object so that we can eventually remove it.

DC and MuS are on the fence concerning deprecation.

NS says we should add some text to the spec telling people to use img.

NS: MathML4 is a major cleanup. We have an opportunity to get rid of unused
elements.

DC: In the web context, use image. When not in the web context, you should
keep mglyphs.

NS wrote: At the 12-9-2024 meeting, there was no consensus to deprecate or
remove mglyph. @davidcarlisle felt that because MS Office uses it (on
input, it only uses the alt text and it's not clear that it generates it),
he felt it would be bad to break office/word's implementation even though
it is not used in the web context. @MurrayIII was also on the fence.
@davidcarlisle also felt that, like maction, it provides a neutral target
for images that can be mapped to other tags in whatever environment
contains the math.

The conclusion was to add some text to discourage its use and suggest using
img instead if targeting the web.

This issue can be closed once that text is added.

*ACTION* NS will add to issue 25 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/25>
saying that there was no agreement on deprecation of mglyph but, in the web
context, mglyph should be replaced with img. Once this language is added,
issue 25 can be closed.

   - maction comments issue 501 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/501>?

NS: The feeling here is that we should not get rid of maction because it
provides a place to hang the actions on. It provides a place to stick data,
but the actiontype is ignored.

NS: So, we are not going to deprecate maction.

DC wants to complete a pull request to make actiontype optional.

NS asked who wanted to deprecate maction.

BB: No opinion.

In favor: NS.

DC: Keep maction but drop the action type and make maction Basically an
mrow.

NS: There is no strong consensus towards deprecation. We will not deprecate
it.

*RESOLUTION:* We keep maction and we make actiontype optional to match
core. DC will make these text changes in issue 501
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/501>, then he will close issue 501.