Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 5 Sept 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Murray Sargent
   - Patrick Ion
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Bruce Miller

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - David Carlisle

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

   - Deprecating group/malignmark comments?

MuS went back to the equation array question. Word uses the XSLT file
MML2OMML.XSL in translating from MathML to Word's internal format (OMML).
On his machine this file is located at C:\Program Files\Microsoft
Office\root\Office16\MML2OMML.XSL. The reverse conversion that is used to
generate Word's MathML is OMML2MML.XSL. These files use maligngroup and
malignmark in representing equation arrays.

MuS: A case could be made for changing the XSLT. Note that the other
Microsoft math-enabled apps (e.g., PowerPoint and OneNote) use different
MathML converters so changing Word's XSL files would not help them. They
would continue to produce maligngroup and malignmark for equation arrays.

*ACTION* DC will look into the XSLT to try and eliminate the need for
maligngroup/malignmark.

   - glyph comments: issue 25 Remove/Deprecate mglyph element
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/25>?

NS: How many people want to deprecate mglyph and replace it with img or
some other tag?

To Deprecate mglyph: PI, PL, MuS, and NS.

MoS and BM are neutral.

   - maction comments? issue 501 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/501>.

*ACTION* NS will add more material to 501.

Meeting sense: deprecate maction from MathML: Deprecate: PL, and MoS. Keep
Maction: Mus, PI, and NS.

BM is neutral.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

   - TPAC is 23-27 Sept. Schedule and registration is at
   www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/. Registration is open until 13 Sept.

NS registered for TPAC for free.

   -

   W3C Groups Community Survey 2024:

   W3C Members: https://gzobeteisdd.typeform.com/to/uaESY6Q8

   Invited Experts: https://gzobeteisdd.typeform.com/to/TeoUTslq PI and LJM
   responded
   -

   MoS: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T271001 new tracking task for
   progress with MathML as default in Wikipedia.

MuS demonstrated his fledgling intent editor.

MuS: We must make autocomplete work for intent.

NS suggested the case where entering \ti would display the various meanings
of time, and the user could pick the one they wanted.

MuS: There is an autocomplete for symbols but not for intents.

PL: There are ambiguities about the word "by". It can mean 2 by 2, or "by"
can be used to describe an intent.

NS: We will want to have the WYSIWYG editor for intent when we try to sell
intent to others.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-2-deprecation>2.
Deprecation

   - maligngroup/malignmark comments issue #181
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>.

From Copilot: XSLT stands for Extensible Stylesheet Language
Transformations. It’s a language used for transforming XML documents into
other formats like HTML, plain text, or other XML documents.

MuS went back to the equation array question. Word uses the XSLT file
MML2OMML.XSL in translating from MathML to Word's internal format (OMML).
On his machine this file is located at C:\Program Files\Microsoft
Office\root\Office16\MML2OMML.XSL. The reverse conversion that is used to
generate Word's MathML is OMML2MML.XSL. These files use maligngroup and
malignmark in representing equation arrays.

MuS: We cannot get rid of maligngroup/malignmark for MathML4 because they
are used, but we can discourage their use.

NS: Did you try columnalignment thus getting rid of maligngroup/malignmark?

MuS: This works for Word. Word can align columns. Word is the most adept at
MathML among MS products.

MuS: The only way to do this is by using context menus.

MuS: A case could be made for changing the XSLT. Note that the other
Microsoft math-enabled apps (e.g., PowerPoint and OneNote) use different
MathML converters so changing Word's XSL files would not help them. They
would continue to produce maligngroup and malignmark for equation arrays.

*ACTION* DC will look into the XSLT to try and eliminate the need for
maligngroup/malignmark.

Users are going to need a WYSIWYG editor if they are to add intents.

   - glyph comments: issue 25 Remove/Deprecate mglyph element
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/25>?

NS wrote: At the last Math WG (8/29/2024) meeting, there was some
discussion of potentially deprecating from MathML full. It is not part of
core. For browser-based implementations, embedding inside of a leaf element
is an alternative to .

According to this MDN page
<https://devdoc.net/web/developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/MathML/Element/mglyph.html>,
mglyph is not implemented in any browser. I wrote a codepen
<https://codepen.io/nms/pen/GRbwxzR> and verified this is true for Chrome
and Firefox.

NS: If you're not in a web context, It's exactly the same as what mglyph
was before. It's the same amount of effort. It's just named Img.

BM: Even outside of an HTML context, you should use Img.

BM: It's unlikely, but it's quite theoretically possible that Img means
something completely different in the host document format.

PL: Image is another form of inclusion that says that anyone that displays
it could open themselves to an attack.

NS: So, I don't see this as introducing any new issues that aren't already
in there, because this is just HTML.

NS: In a web context, the browsers will know what to do.

BM: When you are not in a web context, what if img is treated as something
else which could triggering nuclear bombs?

NS: Use name spaces.

BM: Use whatever tag that can create images in your document. It does not
have to be img.

BM: We should standardize on something.

NS: If you are doing something new, change the schema to explain how to use
it.

NS: Mglyph is rarely used because it is not supported, therefore it is
marginal.

PI: Mglyphs was introduced because it was a special character element. It
may not be relevant anymore.

NS: Deyan had examples, eg.g, from knot theory

PI: Yes, one was the skein relations in knot theory.

MuS: In word you can Insert images into a numerator without any trouble at
all because the word's model allows different tag sets to be used.

NS wanted a sense of the meeting on whether to deprecate mglyph.

NS: How many people want to deprecate mglyph and replace it with img or
some other tag?

To Deprecate mglyph: PI, PL, MuS, and NS.

MoS and BM are neutral.

   - maction comments? issue 501 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/501>.

NS: We need to align with core on this. Core does support maction. It takes
the first argument and ignores the rest.

*ACTION* NS will add more material to 501. Mostly this issue was what to do
about core.

NS What about deprecating maction?

PI: People could attach activities using maction. Now it can be done with
JavaScript.

NS: Let us standardize things that people want to do in MathML.

NS: Maction makes things explicit in MathML.

PL: There is math augmentation in the literature. Make things
understandable with animations. Maction is not enough for this. You need a
lot more than maction.

PI: maction was expected to mark a group over which an action would
operate. The maction may have as an argument a JavaScript that could
perform the action you have in mind.

NS: The ability to implement something is often dependent on the platform
they are using.

BM: Maction shows a place where the author expects something to happen.

BM: Often it seems better to drop down into JavaScript and perform the
action that way.

Meeting sense: deprecate maction from MathML: Deprecate: PL, and MoS.

Keep Maction: Mus, PI, and NS.

BM is neutral.

Pi: Maction could have a JavaScript as its argument, and the JavaScript
would implement the required action.

From Patrick D F Ion to everyone:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/MathML/Element/maction They
say: "The MathML element allows to bind actions to mathematical
expressions. By default, only the first child is rendered but some browsers
may take into account actiontype and selection attributes to implement
custom behaviors.

Note: Historically, this element provided a mechanism to make MathML
formulas interactive. Nowadays, it is recommended to rely on JavaScript and
other Web technologies to implement this use case."
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0#cp-md-0-3-review-units-and-currency->3.
Review Units and Currency:

   - Units and Currency Property text
   <https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-properties/#Units-and-currency>
   - include standardized currencies in core intents #490
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/490>
   - List of units #475 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/475>

NS: We have a list of units, but this list will not be in the spec. It is
not a concept name. Can we close this issue?

We have properties so we do not have to keep all these lists.

PL: Should we not show an example?

PL: The property unit applies to almost everything.