- From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
- Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 12:42:17 -0700
- To: "www-math@w3.org" <www-math@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAESRWkC749tiBR8PVguCnQ=tg6asRmERWKd06EjEKt-sEUzPgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Attendees: - Neil Soiffer - Louis Maher - Dennis Müller - Paul Libbrecht - Bruce Miller - David Carlisle - Murray Sargent <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-4#cp-md-0-action-items>Action Items Decide about deprecating mgroupalign/malignmark: #181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>. [postponed from last week - decision also relates to #180 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>]. NS: We will put off this discussion for another week. issue 428 Deprecate element <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/428> *ACTION* DC will work on the spec to complete the deprecation of (none). issue 441 Intent and style (mathcolor, CSS, others?) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/441> *ACTION* On Apr 27, 2023, DG commented: In the call today (27.04) we seemed to be generally in favor of a small spec clarification mentioning that styling information is generally not conveyed through AT. And that in cases where styling is used to convey valuable information, an author will need to record that separately via Intent. It may be helpful to include a small example, e.g., marking a variable name as intent="red-x" or assigning a property such as :incoming-light, in place of a specific color style. DC will handle these spec updates and close issue 441. issue 501 actiontype attribute required on maction? <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/501> *ACTION* DC wrote: I'd like to merge this PR anyway to bring the spec into line with the schema and make actiontype an optional attribute. DC will add a comment saying the group should consider deprecating maction. We will consider this in a future meeting. issue 25 Remove/Deprecate mglyph element <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/25> *ACTION* MuS: Word allows you to put images into equations, but I don't know exactly what it does with those images when it exports it to MathML, but I can find out. *ACTION* NS will investigate which browsers support mglyphs. *ACTION* NS can send a message to www-math to see if people are in favor of keeping mglyphs. issue 27 Remove/Deprecate subscriptshift/superscriptshift attributes of msubsup/msup/msub <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/27> *ACTION* NS will make a polyfill for issue 27. issue 72 Deprecate/Remove mlabeledtr <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/72> *ACTION* DC will create a tall math equation and see if he can align it with the neighboring text using tables. In summary, he will make a table example for issue 72. <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-4#cp-md-0-agenda> Agenda <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-4#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports NS: The TPAC meeting is in September. No one from our group is going. People can register to attend virtually if they wish to keep track of stuff. issue 209: Use fence/separator operator properties in MathML Core? <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/209> DC moved fence and separator to legacy schema w3c/mathml-schema#2]( https://github.com/w3c/mathml-schema/pull/2). Issue 209 is closed. issue 503 Normative references to discontinued specs in Mathematical Markup Language (MathML) Version 4.0 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/503> DC commented: I updated to rfc9110 which covers enough here I think. DC closed the issue. <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-4#cp-md-0-2-decide-about-deprecating-mgroupalign-malignmark-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-a-postponed-from-last-week-decision-also-relates-to-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-180-180-a->2. Decide about deprecating mgroupalign/malignmark: #181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>. [postponed from last week - decision also relates to #180 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>]. MuS: Here's a quick summary of my investigation: MuS: Current Microsoft apps 1. Word supports matrix column/row alignments via context menu options and OMML, but not via MathML, LaTeX, or Unicode Math. See C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office\root\Office16\MML2OMML.XSL which is used to convert MathML to OMML. OMML2MML.XSL does convert OMML matrix column alignment to MathML table column alignment. 2. PowerPoint and OneNote have no support for matrix column/row alignments 3. Unicode Math supports the equation array for LaTeX alternating &, but no support for matrix column/row alignments. Unicode Math could support left/right column alignment using &ˡ and &ʳ, respectively, with the unadorned & signifying center. Conclusion: We can deprecate malignmark and maligngroup, but for backward (and current) compatibility we should continue to document their simple interpretation for representing the LaTeX alternating &. NS: Since word is generating mgroupalign/malignmark, we cannot get rid of them until Ms stops generating them. DC: This is a problem because mgroupalign/malignmark are not in core. DC Malign is similar to tablealign. NS: There is a lot of verbiage in the spec to support this. Mgroupalign/malignmark cannot go away as long as they are used. NS: If we tried to put mgroupalign/malignmark in core, people would say to use table alignments. NS to BM: does LaTeX use them? BM no. MuS Showed a Firefox example where mgroupalign/malignmark was used to align things. The group told him to remove mgroupalign/malignmark and see if that made any difference. It did not make any difference. NS: Chromium does not support columnalign. NS: We will put off this discussion for another week. <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-4#cp-md-0-3-taking-stock-of-where-we-are-at-continued-let-39-s-go-through-more-issues-and-hopefully-close-some-this-week>3. Taking stock of where we are at (continued) -- let's go through more issues and hopefully close some this week <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-4#cp-md-0-57-open-issues>57 open issues - 16 with intent label - 9 with need spec update label - 20 with MathML label - Note: some have multiple labels issue 428 Deprecate element <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/428> An empty mrow is the same as (none). Get rid of (none) to simplify MathML. (None has been removed from core. *ACTION* DC will work on the spec to complete the deprecation of (none). issue 441 Intent and style (mathcolor, CSS, others?) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/441> on Apr 27, 2023, DG commented: In the call today (27.04) we seemed to be generally in favor of a small spec clarification mentioning that styling information is generally not conveyed through AT. And that in cases where styling is used to convey valuable information, an author will need to record that separately via Intent. It may be helpful to include a small example, e.g., marking a variable name as intent="red-x" or assigning a property such as :incoming-light, in place of a specific color style. DC will handle these spec updates and close issue 441. issue 501 actiontype attribute required on maction? <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/501> NS: We cannot deprecate it yet. *ACTION* DC wrote: I'd like to merge this PR anyway to bring the spec into line with the schema and make actiontype an optional attribute. DC will add a comment saying the group should consider deprecating maction. We will consider this in a future meeting. *ACTION* NS will write a message to the www-math email list asking if anyone uses maction. He will ask “is deprecation a problem for anyone?” We will discuss it next week. Let us consider the issues that have the MathML 4 label. issue 25 Remove/Deprecate mglyph element <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/25> DC: The mglyph element is not in core. DC: If you deprecate mglyphs, you'd have no way of doing images in mass mail. *ACTION* MuS: Word allows you to put images into equations, but I don't know exactly what it does with those images when it exports it to MathML, but I can find out. NS: It is mentioned in many places. NS: Does anyone want to keep mglyphs? NS: Do you know who supports mglyphs? DC: Mglyphs are not in Chrome, but historically they were in Firefox. NS cannot find mglyphs in MDN. MuS: In a way, mglyph ought to be just a wrapper for HTML's image. *ACTION* NS will investigate which browsers support mglyphs. *ACTION* NS can send a message to www-math to see if people are in favor of keeping mglyphs. issue 27 Remove/Deprecate subscript shift/superscriptshift attributes of msubsup/msup/msub <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/27> Ns: We should not deprecate this. I believe it is a problem with core. Fred says they are not implemented in WebKit or Chromium. NS: But they are supported in Gecko which means Firefox. DC: There are many other shifts. DC: We should not deprecate it from full. NS: mmultiscripts is another way to deal with this. DC: Yes, but that's only when you got them on the same base. NS: Mglyphs stay in. NS: Issue 27 still needs a polyfill. *ACTION* NS will make a polyfill for issue 27. issue 72 Deprecate/Remove mlabeledtr <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/72> The problem is to get the equation number to line up with its equation. NS: The issue is that you got to get the alignments on the baselines right, and so once you move it to a table, you no longer are aligning it with the equation, and then you have problems. MuS: The equation number works correctly in MathJax, but not in chromium. NS: It is not supported in core. NS: The question is, can you get that alignment with a table? *ACTION* DC will create a tall math equation and see if he can align it with the neighboring text using tables. In summary, he will make a table example for issue 72.
Received on Wednesday, 4 September 2024 19:42:32 UTC