Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 17 October, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Bert Bos
   - Patrick Ion
   - Bruce Miller
   - Murray Sargent
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

*CONSENSUS* The group has consensus on using the automated system, i.e.,
the group is OK to publish a new WD on the /TR page every time an update to
the editors' draft is pushed to GitHub.

*ACTION* BB will do the technical work to make the automatic publishing
processing happen.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-256-256-standard-prefix-form-of-derivative-operators-in-leibniz-notation-and-d-notation-should-be-in-category-l-to-match-iso-80000-2-a->#256:
Standard prefix form of derivative operators in Leibniz notation and
D-notation should be in category L to match ISO 80000-2
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/256>

*ACTION* DC will reply to issue 256. We will not change the operator
dictionary.

BB: The latest CSS has the ability to look into elements. In CSS you can
select an element on what comes before, now you can do this on something
after the element or inside the element.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/:has

DC: I'll try that in Chrome which has basically better CSS support for math.

*ACTION* DC: will make an example update for issue 256.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-229-229-native-mathml-rendering-problems-a->#229:
Native MathML rendering problems
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/229>

*ACTION* MuS will put a checkbox in front of each case in issue 229 and we
can check them off as we consider them.

*ACTION* MuS will write one or more web platform tests for issue 229.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-261-261-big-and-big-backslash-etc-are-too-small-a->#261:
\Big/ and \Big\backslash etc. are too small
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/261>

*RESOLUTION* The UTR25 document should say which characters are stretchy
and the core, and full, specifications should point to UtR25 as a source
for stretchy information.

*ACTION* DC will make a proposal to address the issue.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-260-260-too-much-space-around-a->#260:
Too much space around / <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/260>

*ACTION* DC will reply and ask Fred if this is a change that can be made.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

   - spec updates

DC eliminated the "other" attribute.

PI: Adobe has been mentioning MathML. PI: Adobe InDesign adds some MathML
support: https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/math-expressions.html
https://helpx.adobe.com/indesign/using/whats-new/2025.html#mathml

NS: There is one more week of summer-time in Europe.

DC is going to a math tagging in LaTeX meeting.

NS submitted a PR to allow NVDA to read math in pdf files. This should
appear in NVDA 2015.1. JAWS said they will plan to also have this
capability.

MuS has been improving his application
<https://murrayiii.github.io/UnicodeMathML/playground/> including the
documentation.

MuS: What should the intent notation be so that ⅆ is spoken "differential
d" for character-mode navigation vs "d" for equation navigation? Does not
want to say "differential d" unless navigating by character.

MuS: In integrals, MuS wants “dx” to be pronounced “dx” and not
differential dx.

BB wrote: I did not yet publish an updated WD of MathML4 on the /TR
(Technical Reports) page, but I've been looking at how to automate the
publication, using the Echidna system. It is a complex system, but in the
end it doesn't seem to require a lot of work for us to set it up.

It requires two technical things and a group decision:

   1.

   An update to the GitHub Action we already have. (David, if you want to
   do it, the required text for the GitHub Action is here:
   https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithu>
   <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithu%3E>
   b.com%2Fw3c%2Fechidna%2Fwiki%2FHow-to-use-Echidna&data=05%7C02%7C%7C27
   1c35fc951743dc807a08dceeccf95c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%
   7C0%7C638647811350362528%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiL
   CJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Isl9C
   hxVVIglnKvs6qVBWaFVe01BfdRHdyhgghjoIks%3D&reserved=0 Or I can do it
   myself.)
   2.

   Get a secret token to authenticate to Echidna and store it on GitHub.
   (The instructions are in the link above. David or I can do it.)
   3.

   A decision from the group, recorded in the minutes or in mail from Neil
   to our mailing list, that the group has consensus on using the automated
   system, i.e., the group is OK to publish a new WD on the /TR page every
   time an update to the editors' draft is pushed to GitHub.

*CONSENSUS* The group has consensus on using the automated system, i.e.,
the group is OK to publish a new WD on the /TR page every time an update to
the editors' draft is pushed to GitHub.

*ACTION* BB will do the technical work to make the automatic publishing
processing happen.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0-2-mathml-core-issues-with-recent-activity-to-discuss-here->2.
MathML core issues with recent activity to discuss here?
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-256-256-standard-prefix-form-of-derivative-operators-in-leibniz-notation-and-d-notation-should-be-in-category-l-to-match-iso-80000-2-a->#256:
Standard prefix form of derivative operators in Leibniz notation and
D-notation should be in category L to match ISO 80000-2
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/256>

NS: Should the standard prefix form of derivative operators, which is
basically a D get into the operator dictionary?

NS thought that DC said we never put the letters in the operator dictionary.

MuS: The only way I could get the native renderer to render it correctly
was by using a regular character and, rather than the differential D,
because if I put the differential d directly in there, it will display that
and that's not what we want. We want it to display whatever the current
setting is for displaying differentials.

DC: The bar for changing the operator dictionary is high because the
operator dictionary is baked into the browsers. He wants to use letters in
a consistent way. Changing the default ‘d’ after 30 years is not good.

MuS: There is a bit of an issue with the spacing. It's nice if you have
XDX, there ought to be a little space between the x and the dx And that's
something else I had to change the MathML for.

BB: The latest CSS has the ability to look into elements. In CSS you can
select an element on what comes before, now you can do this on something
after the element or inside the element.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/:has

DC: I'll try that in Chrome which has basically got a better CSS support
for math.

*ACTION* DC: will make an example update for issue 256.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-229-229-native-mathml-rendering-problems-a->#229:
Native MathML rendering problems
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/229>

not in Text and not in MathJax Mus

In this issue, MuS wrote: Native MathML rendering differs from
TeX/MathJax/Word in a number of ways. Here's a short list of differences.

   - 𝑎²+𝑏² displays the superscript ² for the 𝑏 too high (should be at
   the same height as for the 𝑎)
   - Adjacent fractions need to be separated by a small space instead of
   being contiguous
   - 𝑎 sin 𝜃 needs a space between the 𝑎 and the sin 𝜃 and between the
   sin and the 𝜃
   - |x| displays the vertical bars too high
   - √𝜋 displays the square root too low
   - Parentheses around matrices are too large
   - Displaying a fraction in block mode is centered, but the fraction bar
   length equals the display width instead of the width of the larger argument

MuS: I found that all I had to do was eliminate one line of CSS and two of
the problems went away.

NS: We should address each case individually.

*ACTION* MuS will put a checkbox in front of each case in issue 229 and we
can check them off as we consider them.

NS: We need to see what the spec says to do.

NS: People should be willing to submit web platform tests to help interop
pay attention to MathML.

From the October 14, 2024, core meeting we have] BK: lots of good info is
at these links: - info about forking GitHub:
https://web-platform-tests.org/writing-tests/submission-process.html -
writing tests: https://web-platform-tests.org/writing-tests.html - running
tests:
https://web-platform-tests.org/running-tests/from-local-system.html#system-setup

BK: There is an IRC to ask questions about tests:
https://matrix.to/#/#wpt:matrix.org

*ACTION* MuS will write one or more web platform tests for issue 229.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-262-262-mathml-core-xml-schema-definition-xsd-a->#262:
MathML Core XML Schema Definition (*.xsd)
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/262>

DC solved this problem and closed this issue.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-245-245-consider-adding-menclose-to-core-level-2-a->#245:
Consider adding menclose to core level-2
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/245>

NS: Fred said you could do this in CSS.

NS said it would be invisible to AT. And things like strikeouts are
important to AT. So maybe you put an intent on an M row where you put the
CSS and maybe we can get it back that way.

NS: I think that was the recent update.

NS: So, I don't think there's anything we need to discuss at this moment.

NS: If this gets added to core, it is labeled at level 2; therefore,
nothing will happen for at least a year.

NS: You should do what you need to do to make it work, Because it's not
going in for a while.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-261-261-big-and-big-backslash-etc-are-too-small-a->#261:
\Big/ and \Big\backslash etc. are too small
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/261>

MoS: There are some symbols which will not stretch.

NS: Which characters stretch sometimes depends on the font.

NS: We should have a note somewhere that discusses stretchable issues. it
is UTR25 which dc edits. We could say which characters stretch there.

MuS: The Unicode specs are being changed to html. The UTR25 document could
be changed to HTML because MathML is now supported in HTML.

*RESOLUTION* The UTR25 document should say which characters are stretchy
and the core, and full, specifications should point to UtR25 as a source
for stretchy information .

*ACTION* DC will make a proposal to address the issue.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-4#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-core-issues-260-260-too-much-space-around-a->#260:
Too much space around / <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/260>

DC: The slash spacing changed at this commit:
https://github.com/w3c/xml-entities/commit/13d9f9f28199d9ac0a353810a70fa0aa432cb4fb#diff-a0f0456c0fa161e1a8551ae929924a4c29b155b709947cae6dc079b07d377b0eL953

NS: We could declare it was a mistake and see if Fred is willing to make a
change.

DC: We may as well make them default closer to TeX.

DG: Does MathML core have a clear interplay defined between lspace, rspace,
and CSS padding? There is actually a discussion about padding box and
padding properties as described in CSS in 312 in the layout algorithms.

NS: Check with Fred. This does not match up with TeX and we want to change
this.

*ACTION* DC will reply and ask Fred if this is a change that can be made.