Minutes: MathML Full Meeting 26 Sept, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Patrick Ion

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Murray Sargent

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-247-spec-should-specify-what-char-to-use-for-accents-lines-247-a->Spec
should specify what char to use for accents/lines #247
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/247>

(clarify core, full, or both)

In the issue, DC wrote: Consensus is to add to section 8.4 the correct
chars to use.

DC also wrote: Call on 22-08-2024 consensus is to recommend non combining
characters (e.g., U+02C6) although current chrome implementation only makes
U+0302 stretchy.

*ACTION:* DC should make a recommendation to the Unicode group to add
information on stretchy characters ,especially look-alike characters, in
their spec. He could do this by putting an issue into the TR25 update.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-498-xsd-not-allowing-semantics-element-as-child-of-apply-element-498-a->XSD
not allowing -element as child of -element #498
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/498>

*ACTION:* DC: This is a bug, and I will fix it.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-72-deprecate-remove-mlabeledtr-72-a->Deprecate/Remove
mlabeledtr #72 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/72>

*ACTION:* DC will remove mlabeledtr from full. He will change the spec.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-499-coordinates-point-at-bug-in-core-list-499-a->coordinates/point-at:
bug in core list? #499 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/499>

*ACTION:* NS will make sure that: point, coordinates, polar coordinates,
and Cartesian coordinates are in the core concepts list.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0-next-week>Next
Week

*ACTION:* If anyone has an issue they wish to discuss at our next meeting,
please let NS know otherwise, we will be discussing: core concepts: how
should the multiple forms of differentiation be handled? #473
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/473>
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The w3C wants to simplify its procedures so that its documentation can
be kept more current than is presently the situation.

DC: The new Foxit PDF reader was released today. Foxit has math support,
and it can talk to NVDA with MathCAT.

DG: I want to thank Neil. You directed me to make a chrome report, which is
now done issue 213 munder, mover, munderover: needs clarity in spec and
consistency in implementation
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/213>.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-3#cp-md-0-2-issues->2.
Issues:

   - Spec should specify what char to use for accents/lines #247
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/247> (clarify core, full, or both)

NS: The issue does not say whether it is for core or full, or both. The
conclusion was to recommend non combining characters.

NS: Core is silent on these things. If we want to put a hat over something,
will it stretch?

PI: Since there is not an agreed list of things which can be stretched, the
font designers have not made different things stretchy. Different fonts
have a different set of characters that are stretchy.

NS: If we give a list of things that should be stretchy, then the font
designers might have to make them stretchy.

DC: We could say it's not our problem.

NS: It must be someone's problem.

NS: We have a stretchy property on the operator dictionary, and this is a
suggestion that characters should be stretchy. We should make this clearer.

DG: Why is this not Unicode's problem? It is our problem Because many of
the properties we do need are Unicode.

Dg: It is not math specific to make something stretchy.

NS: Some of the characters have the math property in Unicode.

DC: I think the official position of MathML is basically it stretches if
the font makes it stretchy. We can't say a lot more.

DC: We could tell people what characters to use.

DC: The font people will not make ascii characters stretchy.

DG: MDN documents what is stretchy. MathML cannot prescribe to Unicode or
font people.

In the issue, DC wrote: Consensus is to add to section 8.4 the correct
chars to use.

DC also wrote: Call on 22-08-2024 consensus is to recommend non combining
characters (e.g., U+02C6) although current chrome implementation only makes
U+0302 stretchy.

*ACTION:* DC should make a recommendation to the Unicode group to add
information on stretchy characters ,especially look-alike characters, in
their spec. He could do this by putting an issue into the TR25 update.

   - XSD not allowing -element as child of -element #498
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/498>

*ACTION:* DC: This is a bug, and I will fix it.

   -

   Intent for large operators #482
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/482> (see core property)
   <https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-properties/#prop-largeop>
   -

   Deprecate/Remove mlabeledtr #72 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/72>

NS: It is difficult to align the equation labels with the base of the row
holding the equation. It can also be difficult to move the equation labels
to the edge of the page.

NS has a polyfill for this.

DG: MathJax was using mlabeledtr, So we must keep it.

DG: It's not a part of the equation, think of it as a footnote. You can use
HTML to insert the label. Adding the label is outside the MathML spec. JATS
does this.

PI: This is not part of a math equation. Leave it out of our spec.

DC: Make an html table or make it a single mtable and the last column has
the equation numbers.
You will have to Depend on CSS to do this.

NS: Seems like there is a consensus to remove it.

DC: It should go.

PI: It's not implemented and probably never will be implemented.

PI Use an html table or an mtable with CSS. Accessibility may be an issue
in both cases.

The following are in favor of deprecating mlabeledtr:
PI, LM, DC, Dg, and BM.

*ACTION:* DC will remove mlabeledtr from full. He will change the spec.

   - coordinates/point-at: bug in core list? #499
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/499>

The concept list is at: From Deyan Ginev to everyone:
https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-concepts/

Point-at is still in the concept list.

A two-dimensional example is point B with coordinates 1 and 2 written as
B(1,2).

DG: You can have the name of a point and its coordinates.

PI: It's a variable name followed by a list (the coordinates).

PI: Do not pen it down to a fixed number of dimensions.

BM: Do not get too fixated on the coordinate system, whether it's Cartesian
or Polar, or whatever, because there are many coordinate systems.

NS: DG said do not distinguish between polar and cartesian coordinates.

DG: We discussed: Point, coordinates, polar, and Cartesian coordinates. You
just have 4. Choose one and the other three become literals.

Examples:

   - point 1, 2
   - coordinates 3, 4
   - cartesian coordinates 3, 4
   - polar coordinates r, theta

BM: It may be pronounced boring, But it should be an option for the case
where it's neither polar nor cartesian. Just call it coordinates.

*ACTION:* NS will make sure that: point, coordinates, polar coordinates,
and Cartesian coordinates are in the core concepts list.

-Next Week

*ACTION:* If anyone has an issue they wish to discuss at our next meeting,
please let NS know otherwise we will be discussing: core concepts: how
should the multiple forms of differentiation be handled? #473
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/473>