Minutes: MathML Full Meeting, 31 October, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Bruce Miller
   - David Farmer
   - Murray Sargent
   - Bert Bos
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - David Carlisle
   - Moritz Schubotz

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Deyan Ginev
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Patrick Ion

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

North America moves its clocks back (for the places that observed daylight
savings time) this coming Sunday (November 3). So, the meeting will start
at its traditional time for individuals in Europe.

*CONSENSUS* Currently, for the full spec, BB has arranged to publish a new
WD on the /TR page every time an update to the editors' draft is pushed to
GitHub. The group agrees that we should do this for the core spec also. DC
will make this change.

*CONSENSUS* DC has an XML entities document which we agree to have
automatically moved into TR space.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0-2-mathml-4-issues->2.
MathML 4 issues:
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-pull-511-discussion-about-update-for-describing-matching-concepts-a->Discussion
about update for describing matching concepts
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/511>
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0--a-href-https-brucemiller-github-io-mathml-spec-html-mixing_intent-bruce-39-s-suggested-rewrite-a->Bruce's
suggested rewrite
<https://brucemiller.github.io/mathml/spec.html#mixing_intent>
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0-deyan-39-s-suggestions-for-changes-to-bruce-39-s-rewrite-a-href-https-github-com-brucemiller-mathml-pull-1-small-number-of-diffs-a->Deyan's
suggestions for changes to Bruce's rewrite (small number of diffs)
<https://github.com/brucemiller/mathml/pull/1>

*ACTION* NS: We should add the literal property to section 5.3.

*ACTION* NS: We need to make a note saying that: When we mention
'dictionary' we say that "dictionary" is a convenient metaphor for what we
are doing. We may use a dictionary, or an AI based solution. A dictionary
is a mapping of concepts to speech items.

*ACTION* NS: So instead of a core concept list, we should call it a core
concept dictionary. A dictionary does not necessarily indicate that the
items are ordered. It could just be a method to map concepts to speech
items.

*ACTION* NS found some mistakes and will send them to BM. BM will then make
a PR and merge his branch.

*CONSENSUS* Change list to dictionary.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

North America moves its clocks back (for the places that observed daylight
savings time) this coming Sunday (November 3). So, the meeting will start
at its traditional time for individuals in Europe.

*CONSENSUS* Currently, for the full spec, BB has arranged to publish a new
WD on the /TR page every time an update to the editors' draft is pushed to
GitHub. The group agrees that we should do this for the core spec also. DC
will make this change.

*CONSENSUS* DC has an XML entities document which we agree to have
automatically moved into TR space.

DC: There has been a lot of work to make it possible to use MathML inside
pdf documents.

DC: In Pdf 2.0, you can tag mathematics with MathML, either as an
associated file or internally. It's sort of in line within the pdf stream
for MathML tags.

DC: The automatic generation of MathML by LuaLaTeX is quite new in the
standard release.

MoS: Is there a place where I can get the official version of the latest
Xml representation because that's much easier to consume with the script
than the HTML?

DC: Just ping me offline if you cannot find it and I will give you the
GitHub links.

MoS: So, when I want to process some of the contents of the standards, I
should just go to GitHub and get it from there.

DC: The sources are Respect sources so they're HTML.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-1-2-mathml-4-issues->2.
MathML 4 issues:
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-1--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-pull-511-discussion-about-update-for-describing-matching-concepts-a->Discussion
about update for describing matching concepts
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/511>

Important: Bruce did a rewrite
<https://brucemiller.github.io/mathml/spec.html#mixing_intent>
of some of the intent sections that we will discuss. It is too long to read
at the meeting. It will probably take 5-10 minutes to read on your own,
depending on how closely you read it. Please take a few minutes before the
meeting to read it so we don't have to spend time reading it at the meeting
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-1--a-href-https-brucemiller-github-io-mathml-spec-html-mixing_intent-bruce-39-s-suggested-rewrite-a->Bruce's
suggested rewrite
<https://brucemiller.github.io/mathml/spec.html#mixing_intent>

NS: The rewrite was good.

NS: Did the intro change much?

BM: no.

BM: For the most part I was kind of collecting up things that seemed like
they were getting discussed a little too early, or they were getting
discussed in several places.

NS: I don't think you changed anything in the grammar, except for the
concept or literal discussion. Is that correct?

BM: I pulled some stuff out of there from the concept and literal section
and moved them down to the next section, otherwise the grammar is pretty
much the same. I hoped that I was not changing anything, just rearranging.

NS: You started making major changes in section 5.2 "Intent Concept
Dictionaries".

BM: This section discussed implicitly something, a dictionary, a list, or
whatnot. It should contain the concepts from core, and may include those
from open, but neither of those are absolutely required.

BM: Whatever it is, it acts like a dictionary.

NS: DG feels that AI is cut out of this definition of a dictionary. Have we
prevented an AI solution?

NS: We will discuss that later and go on with what you have changed.

BM: 5.3 "intent properties". I did not make much change here. Perhaps it's
too rich in examples.

*ACTION* NS: We should add the literal property to section 5.3.

5.4 Using Intent Concepts and Properties: NS to BM, so this was your
biggest area of focus?

BM: Yes, this is where I tried to collect up all the pieces that was from
the other places, and put them in one place together and go through it more
consistently.

BM: Are there arguments? Are there properties about the fixity?

BM: I've added a bit about the case where there's no explicit arguments

BM: If you have a concept, fixity, and arity, then it's a known concept.

BM: If concept, fixity, and arity match, then you have a known concept. If
they do not match, you have an unknown concept, so you would treat it as a
literal.

BM: If there's no concept component, if it's just a property or arguments,
then you mostly treat it as a literal, but possibly modified by whatever
the property asked for.

BM: I did fold in the section about standalone properties.

BM: I don't think that changed anything after this.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.9.0-5-migration2#cp-md-1-deyan-39-s-suggestions-for-changes-to-bruce-39-s-rewrite-a-href-https-github-com-brucemiller-mathml-pull-1-small-number-of-diffs-a->Deyan's
suggestions for changes to Bruce's rewrite (small number of diffs)
<https://github.com/brucemiller/mathml/pull/1>

NS: DG dictionary lookup forces it towards an implementation, and this
blocks an AI solution.

DC: DG has introduced the concept of a match maid by AI and not dependent
on ordered lists.

DC: Main issue,.

*ACTION* NS:  We need to make a note saying that: When we mention
'dictionary' we say that "dictionary" is a convenient metaphor for what we
are doing. We may use a dictionary, or an AI based solution. A dictionary
is a mapping of concepts to speech items

NS: I have some text that I can send to you (DC) that I had sent to DG,
which was not totally spec worthy text. But basically, it says it uses the
word metaphor, and says that as long as any solution conforms to making use
of the concept name, and the properties, and number of arguments, then it's
fine.

NS: The AT would be trained on the dictionary, but be in a neural net.

NS wanted to ask the groups opinion of matching that could be done by AI.

MoS: The core and open lists should be merged together.

MuS: I had a differential d and somehow I needed a way to say that, yes,
the user really wants this To be pronounced a certain way versus, okay,
this is a good idea, you know And I didn't see any way in our syntax to
distinguish between those 2 cases.

NS: We discussed having a terse or verbose reading mode where you're now
making it clear that here's 2 different ways of saying it, and I'll leave
it up to the AT to decide.

DC: You decide which reading mode you want at the time of reading.

NS: It sounds like everybody's more or less on board with what's going on.
Modulo. Murray's comments about alternative readings.

DC: We introduced the word list in many places, we should revisit the use
of the word list. We discussed the differences between the words "list" and
"dictionary".

*ACTION* NS: So instead of a core concept list, we should call it a core
concept dictionary. A dictionary does not necessarily indicate that the
items are ordered. It could just be a method to map concepts to speech
items.

*ACTION* NS found some mistakes and will send them to BM. BM will then make
a PR and merge his branch.

*CONSENSUS* Change list to dictionary.

[PI: suggestion for quibble::

as "three quarters" or "three over x" or may vocalize an inline fraction
marked up as /

=>

as "three quarters", in a specific case, or, more generally, "three over x"
or may vocalize an inline fraction marked up with /