Minutes: MathML Full meeting 2 May, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Murray Sargent
   - Patrick Ion
   - Bert Bos
   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Deyan Ginev

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

   - Clarify property use as descriptions (#493)
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/493> This discussion is postponed
   until DG returns.
   - Add a :structure (or :literal) property? (#492)
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/492> *RESOLUTION* We will add a
   property and call it "literal".
   - *RESOLUTION* For units, we will use the "unit" property.

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

The next Math WG intent meeting will be on Thursday, May 16, at our usual
time. We are skipping May 9 due to scheduling issues.

Before the meeting, DG wrote:

( Announcing the ar5iv-04.2024 dataset I am happy to announce that the
latest ar5iv collection of HTML+MathML documents is now freely available
for reuse as a dataset. The release contains 2.1 million HTML documents,
and over 1 billion MathML expressions, generated by latexml v0.8.8.

More details and download at:
https://sigmathling.kwarc.info/resources/ar5iv-dataset-2024/

As a reminder, the "ar5iv Lab" is an HTML preview site for arXiv.org. As of
late 2023, ar5iv is in the process of being phased out, as arXiv's official
HTML coverage gradually reaches parity. Until then, it continues to be
available at:

https://ar5iv.labs.arxiv.org/ )

From David Carlisle to everyone:
https://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/appendixd.html Which is the Document Object
Model for MathML

NS: David posted the announcement about work we did years ago on Dom
functionality.

PL looked into seeing if JavaScript can determine where a screen reader is
reading and if this could be used to give access information. Due to
privacy considerations, this functionality is blocked.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-2-discussion-continued-from-last-week->2.
Discussion continued from last week:

   - Clarify property use as descriptions (#493)
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/493> NS: LM was tasked with
   finding out what screen readers do with ARIA and particularly
   aria-description and aria-describedby.

NS: JAWS can tell you when you encounter aria-describedby text; then, JAWS
key + alt + r reads the aria-describedby text.

DG writes: ( The latest aria-description spec text can be found here:
https://w3c.github.io/aria/#aria-description

Form controls aren't mentioned. The capability seems quite general to me
and could behave in a friendly way with most MathML elements. We can always
ask the ARIA group if that is the correct interpretation.

The way I read "4.3 Managing Focus and Supporting Keyboard Navigation"
https://w3c.github.io/aria/#managingfocus

I find the considerations quite applicable to keyboard navigation of MathML
expressions: "Usable keyboard navigation in a rich internet application is
different from the tabbing paradigm among interactive elements, such as
links and form controls, in a static document. In rich internet
applications, the user tabs to significantly complex widgets, such as a
menu or spreadsheet and uses the arrow keys to navigate within the widget.
The changes that WAI-ARIA introduces to keyboard navigation make this
enhanced accessibility possible."

If I am reading this right, thinking of navigating a complex MathML
equation is at least partially (if not fully) comparable to navigating a
complex widget, as described by ARIA. )

DC: If we want to use free text to describe something, we should add a
free-text attribute, or borrow one from some other spec.

DC: We should not make a property value name that is a big, long
description as a single token with underscores.

DC: It would be nice if we could use aria something, but if we can't, I
still don't think we should use the long description as a property value.

This discussion is postponed until DG returns.

   - Add a :structure (or :literal) property? (#492)
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/492>

NS: There are two issues. One is, what do we call it, and the second one
is, What does it do? And I have a proposal of what it should do which we
could discuss also at some point.

NS: Neil wanted to call it "structure" where you pronounce it as literally
as you can. (Note there are some special cases where x superscript prime is
called x prime, because that is what is in everyday use.)

DC: Let us pick a name and move on.

DC: Can we take a straw poll on literal or structure?

*RESOLUTION* We will add a property and call it "literal".
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-3-units->3.
Units:

   - Potentially a full list of units with all their prefixes as intent
   concept names List of Units (#475)
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/475> (finished, but still updating
   with feedback)
   - Deyan’s Physics list
   <https://gist.github.com/dginev/825078ae316c32c312436f42061b3d05>
   (finished)
   - Deyan’s Chemistry list
   <https://gist.github.com/dginev/ff7e6e090b79a0389fc2eff2b9961331>
   - Deyan’s Biology List
   <https://gist.github.com/dginev/d6367f53cb7b1fbed8abfa6bddd4f2c0>

NS added dyne and erg to issue 475. Based on the MKS Wikipedia page, NS
believes that the symbol for dyne is dyn, and not f, and that the symbol
for erg is erg and not E. If anyone knows differently, please put a comment
into the issue.

MuS said we should go with dyn and erg because NS found them in the CGS
Wikipedia page and besides the world was moving to SI and not CGS.

NS: Should we be using a property or just use the intent names?

NS said to DC: You said that the units package in TeX already knows the
names of the units. DC: Yes, but it also has a whole grammar for "per" and
"meters cubed per second". It has a grammar for building up compound units.

NS: It is not meant for output. It is just the way you would enter it.

DC: We want consistent output across a document.

NS: The WYSIWYG packages do not have a great way to deal with units.

NS: The TeX package can generate the names of each units individually.

DC: There is an 84-page manual which describes the TeX units package.

NS to DC: Do you know which parts of the TeX manual are used?

DC: Most documents do not use markup units. They just write out the Mathrm
symbols for setting units. If people use this we can have whatever intents
we want. Most documents just write letters and do not use a generator
package.

DC: We are trying to push the units package because, especially for the
tagging, you have far more control of what it really is.

From Patrick D F Ion to everyone: I just sent in mail, FYI, images of Don
Knuth’s first publication on Units in Mad Magazine #26. I apologize if
levity is inappropriate.