Minutes: MathML Full meeting, 7 March, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Dennis Müller
   - David Farmer
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Bert Bos
   - Deyan Ginev

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets
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Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: Showed a new international integral sign (looks like a big slash, "/")
and asked how to make it in MathML.

DC had some suggestions, but they were not completely successful.

NS: Daylight savings time starts on Sunday March 10 in the U.S. The intent
meeting times in Europe would be one hour earlier.

NS: This year, the W3C TPAC meeting will be in Anaheim California from
September 23 through September 27. We need to decide if we want to have
some kind of meeting.

NS: Who will go to Anaheim for the TPAC?

BB will go, and NS might go.

NS will bring this up at later intent meetings.

BB: There will be a party celebrating the 30th anniversary of the W3C.
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Discussion/updates on some open issues:

Our Core Concept List is at "
https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-concepts/".
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-486-intent-for-quot-by-quot-as-in-3-4-matrix-486-a-can-this-be-closed->Intent
for "by" (as in 3×4 matrix (486) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/486>
-- can this be closed?

*ACTION* NS will enter a concept named "dimension" for "by" in the core
concept list. It will be spoken as "by".

NS: Can we close this?

*RESOLUTION:* DF: If we have a concept row for dimension and the speech
template says by, then we certainly can close this issue.

PL: Are we specifying which speech template is terse, and which speech
template is verbose? Are we specifying a default speech template?

NS: Power is a concept with multiple speech templates.

NS: Derivative is a concept whose speech template has the verbose label.

DG: Should we have both "terse" and "verbose" speech templates for each
concept? He thinks not because this would enlarge the size of the concept
list with two extra parameters (terse and verbose) for each concept.

therefore, not need to do that because the AT can tell the length of a
speech template and can therefore decide which template is terse and which
is verbose.

NS: Where appropriate, we can just list two options, one short and one long.

NS: Its cleaner to not have the "terse" and "verbose" labels.

PL: Do we want comments for the concepts?

NS: We need to consider what comments we should have for the human reader.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-483-ellipsis-483-a-can-this-be-closed->Ellipsis
(483) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/483> -- can this be closed?

NS: We have diverse kinds of ellipses: vertical and other directions.

NS: We agreed on the concept name "ellipsis", and we have concept names for
other types of ellipsis.

**RESOLUTION: Close issue 483.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-484-mixed-fractions-in-core-484-a-can-this-be-closed->mixed-fractions
in core (484) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/484> -- can this be
closed?

NS: We have fraction and mixed-fraction in the concept list.

*RESOLUTION* close issue 484.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-488-permutations-488-a->Permutations
(#488) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/488>

NS: The idea is that there were Different notations for permutations, one
of which Was multiple cycles, and another one was a 2-row notation. The
2-row notation maps one row into the other row.

NS: We can introduce some sort of table property which is our way of making
it easier to markup saying it's a permutation.

NS: We could name the table property "permutation".

*RESOLUTION* DC: Permutation is a concept. put in a table property that
says read by column. Close issue 488.

NS: We do not have to concern ourselves now about saying the direction of
reading, downwards or upwards, until we encounter this issue. The default
reading directions for tables are left to right and top to bottom.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-489-update-minsize-maxsize-percentage-values-to-match-mathml-core-489-a->Update
minsize/maxsize percentage values to match MathML Core (#489)
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/489>

NS: Core has a specification on how to stretch something and what minsize
and maxsize mean. The full spec has a different description of these things.

NS: What is our solution here, to change core or to change spec.

DG: Does not want the core spec and the full spec to disagree.

DC Change our spec to match core because core is going to CR. Don't break
core now.

NS: So, the issue BM has is that LaTeX has a /big open and /big close
parenthesis, and he wants MathML to have them as well.

BM: What is in core does not make any sense.

BM: If we change core to be consistent with the full spec, then the Chrome
code would have to be changed.

BM and DG: Safari and Firefox work with the old spec.

BM: If you specify big in terms of "em", then you have to backtrack through
your tree to see what "em" is.

DC: We should ask Fred and Brian how hard it would be to change the chrome
code. Let us not break anything.

DC: The core spec has not gone to CR yet.

NS: The point of CR is to get users' experiences.

NS: Is there a matching issue in core about this?

DG: Yes. There is a link to the core spec in issue 489.

NS: Is our resolution to take this back to core?

*RESOLUTION* NS: The resolution is that this needs to be pushed back to
Chrome or to the core (issue 889).

NS: Push back to core. The core implementation causes problems.

DC: See how MathJAX interprets it.

*ACTION* DG will check MathJAX for what it does with MathML for minsize and
maxsize and what it does with /big on the regular base line and
superscripts.

*ACTION* BM: Push this back to the core spec and layout the arguments
there. He will suggest changes in core and what should be repaired.

NS: We will do chemistry next week.

*ACTION* NS: What does the AI in Zoom do. LM will look into it.

NS: LM will be gone next Thursday, March 14. If LM is provided with a
meeting recording and a transcript, LM will generate minutes, else, someone
else should scribe on March 14.