Minutes: MathML Full meeting 29, Feb, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Greg Williams
   - Louis Maher
   - David Farmer
   - Bert Bos
   - David Carlisle
   - Bruce Miller
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Murray Sargent

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: The Educational Testing Service (ETS) has not renewed its membership
with the W3C.

CS may retire from the Math WG after the chemistry discussions.

NS: There has been a GitHub discussion on whether permutation should have a
property.

NS: DC and NS think there should be a property and DG says don't bother.

NS: This is a permutation that is represented by a two-row table issue 488
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/488>.

*ACTION* NS asks us to look at issue 488 and give an opinion.

NS also discussed issue489 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/489>
"Update minsize/maxsize percentage values to match MathML Core". The issue
is about minsize and maxsize on a stretchy operator.

NS and DC think that the description in core matches that in the full spec,
but of course full is much less specific about what it's saying.

In issue 489, DG has provided improved language for the spec to make its
intent clearer.

DC: this is in section 3.2.5.2.1 in the MathML 4 spec.

PL: Has seen this problem in his university.

NS: So, the issue is if you don't put a maxsize or minsize on, Then they
will stretch to the sizes of the largest characters in the enclosing mrow.
So, by putting an mrow around something you can contain, You can avoid that
problem.

*ACTION:* NS: Comments in issue 488 and issue 489 would be welcome.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-0#cp-md-0-2-chemistry-discussion-greg-williams-co-chair-w3c-chemistry-community-group-will-join-the-call-for-part-3-of-the-conversation-for-potential-reference->2.
Chemistry discussion. Greg Williams (co-chair W3C Chemistry Community
Group) will join the call for part 3 of the conversation. For potential
reference,

Deyan's Chemistry list
<https://gist.github.com/dginev/ff7e6e090b79a0389fc2eff2b9961331> (start on
row 18 of the section entitled "chemistry, physics")

Here is the link to the Google sheet from the CCWG:
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h-8k_bwQ1bO7gusb0O2DfcEs0DZUAo6QVGYZuVjWVB8/edit#gid=0>

Let us consider rows 18-24:

enthalpy (H) entropy (S) atmosphere (atm) heat-of-vaporization (H sub v)
molar-gas-constant (R) molar-volume (V sub m) heat-of-fusion (H sub f)

atmosphere is a unit.

GW: Things like enthalpy will appear in equations in a math-like context.
So, he is OK if they are read in a MathSpeak style. It could be read as cap
h.

GW: If you wanted to have an intent so that it would be chemistry aware,
then you would say enthalpy.

GW: In chemistry things have names like enthalpy and entropy; however, that
is not how they are read.

NS: So it is the case that someone could always force the reading by
providing an intent.

DG: We should include translations of these terms. Otherwise, I agree with
the perspective that if you don't speak it, you don't need it in the list.

NS: If there is only the letter H, then there is no translation.

PL: If you have a verbose option, you will have to say enthalpy.

GW: atm (atmosphere) is a unit.

GW: As far as the others are concerned, I'm agnostic as to whether there
should be an intent that's there in case somebody wants to do something
with it.

CS: It should be left to speaking letters.

GW: A property name gives the AT a choice for verbose options.

NS: Intent is like a label and properties are long descriptions.

*Resolution* enthalpy (H) entropy (S) heat-of-vaporization (H sub v)
molar-gas-constant (R) molar-volume (V sub m) heat-of-fusion (H sub f) do
not need concept names.

GW: He would like to have an option for a verbose reading; however, the
verbose speech should not be forced.

DC: Put intent on the first H then just H after that.

Row 25 pressure (P) Could be P sub a or P sub b (if fully annotated) be
read pressure-cap-a, pressure-cap-b

GW: He would say p sub a.

CS: May say it as partial pressure.

DG: Should it be fully annotated?

GW: There could be a situation where you might want it read fully, but not
the default. Read it like a math expression.

NS: It could be confused with probability.

GW: There should be an optional reading of pressure.

NS: Pressure should have a core concept name of pressure.

Let us consider rows 26, 27, and 28: single-bond (-,|,,/, :covalent-bond)
double-bond (=, ‖ :covalent-bond) triple-bond (≡, :covalent-bond)

NS: Put them into core, they will be concepts.

Row 29 dipole-force (written … used as with single-bond)

GW will research this issue. We will come back to it.

Consider rows 30-33: electron-shell (for :orbital-diagram) spin-up-electron
(↑ for :orbital-diagram) spin-down-electron (↓ for :orbital-diagram)
spin-up-and-spin-down-electrons (⇅ for :orbital-diagram)

GW: An orbital diagram shows you the distributions of electrons in an atom.

GW: It should force AT to read it. The arrows are significant.

DG: Rows 30-33 should have the orbital diagram property.

CS: We do not know how to do it in MathML.

DC: We cannot design it on the fly. We must do experiments with MathML to
see what we can do.

*ACTION* NS should create an issue for orbital diagrams.

Rows 34 and 35: Molarity and Molality are units.

Skip rows 36 and 37: elevated-boiling-point (+, page 357)
lowered-freezing-point (-, page 357)

NS: Just say the words in rows 38 and 39: boiling-point-constant
freezing-point-constant

Row 40: reversible-reaction ⇌ 40 This is equilibrium.

From Deyan Ginev to Everyone:
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Let_s_Review_Regents_Chemistry_Physical/EUGZzQEACAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1
page 357

Row 41: concentration [ $1 ]. This will be a concept name.

Row 42 equilibrium-constant K sub eq Row 43 solubility-product-constant K
sub sp

Rows 42 and 43 are table until next week.

*ACTION* Cs will research rows 42 and 43.

Row 44 substance-reacted (-, page 385) Row 45 substance-formed (+, page
385) Skip rows 44 and 45.

46 standard-reduction-potential (cap e degrees,

GW: It is read as e nought.

DC: This symbol just got added to the Unicode.

NS: If we wanted to say E naught, we clearly need a concept name because
there's no way in the world most people are going to know what it is.

CS: I'll tell you, Braille transcribers will commonly mix that up. I'll put
the degree symbol instead of the nought.

GW: A circle, a degree symbol, or a plinth: all 3 of them mean the same
thing, but for various types of graphic reasons are chosen.

DC: So, what's a good name? Should it be something with state in its name?
So standard reduction potential is what's here.

NS: Row 46's concept name is: standard state, with a postfix property. The
default would actually say dollar one at standard state.

GW: The terse way to read it would be e0 or (E-Nought) at standard state.

CS: Standard-reduction-potential is its verbose name.

Row 47 half-reaction | (page 449)

GW: Half-reaction is a concept.

NS: What are the arguments?

NS: It has one argument bracketed by vertical bars.

Row 48: volume (V)

NS: This is just a capital V.

NS: I think that's just V, and we leave it as V.

Row 49 reaction (rxn) rxn means reaction.

GW: It sort of looks like a function: so, sin is a sine, cos is a cosine,
and rxn is a reaction.

NS: So, it's basically a function of one argument then.

GW: Well, except it's probably not even that. It's usually a subscript or
like a subscript label.

GW: It’s a direct substitution. Any time you see rxn, substitute reaction
for it.

Ns: Its intent name is reaction.

This is the end of the chemistry, physics list on DG's file.