Minutes: MathML Full meeting 13 June, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Dennis Müller
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Murray Sargent
   - Moritz Schubotz

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.1#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - David Farmer
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Bruce Miller

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.1#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

   - Open concept list update
   <https://davidcarlisle.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-open-concepts/>

*ACTION* DC will make a fork with an experimental rendering of the
condensed list.

*ACTION* DC will merge his results so that others can help him with it.

*ACTION* NS: Are we using 'n' or '*' to indicate a variable argument list.
DC: I need to check this. Maybe we are using both.

   - Intent implementations update

*ACTION* MoS and NS will discuss the status of MoS's intent implementation.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.1#cp-md-0-2-potentially-closable-intent-issues-after-a-little-discussion->2.
Potentially closable intent issues after a little discussion:

   - Intent for distinguishing uses of spaces #481
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/481>

*ACTION* DC will close issue 481 with a blank concept added to core.

   - Intent for large operators #482
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/482>

*ACTION* DC is willing to list the large operators and see what such a list
would look like. This might help the group reach a decision whether to have
a small table of large operators, or list each operator separately with its
own speech template and comments.

   - include standardized currencies in core intents #490
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/490>

*ACTION* NS will add a comment to this issue (490) saying that we are going
to add the currency symbols, and speaking order could be left to an intent
on a surrounding mrow, and we will not add the currency exchange symbols
such as usd. Do not close issue 490.

*ACTION* MuS: I will check the Unicode Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR)
to see what they do about currency.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.1#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.1#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

   - Open concept list update
   <https://davidcarlisle.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-open-concepts/>

DC: Showed his open concept list. The first five columns are the same as
core. He added the "subject" and "sources columns.

It was decided that this list should explain the arguments used in each
concept.

DC open an issue on this Distinguishing arguments in intent concept lists
(496) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/496>.

NS: If there was any ambiguity we would put a comment to explain the
arguments.

DG comes from a programmer's point of view. He wants the variables to look
like template variables such as $1, $2,…

NS Would you have to have the literal MathML?

DC: You could have the rendering show up as a mouse-over tooltip. If you
did this, you would need the literal MathML with intent.

NS: to DG, Would you want to look at the YAML or the rendered version?

DG: It is a test. Rendering tells you if it works, and the YAML is
documentation to check against.

NS likes having the intent in the table. You do not need it with zero or
one arguments.

MuS likes seeing the math notation. This helps clarify unfamiliar concepts
for him. He would like to be able to hover over individual variables.

MoS: It would be good to keep track of the variables used in speech.
Perhaps they could have a special class which would cause them to be
highlighted. Keeping track of the definitions of variables would help in
translation.

NS: Likes to have the intent in the examples. The intent reinforces what
you should be writing.

DC has been converting pseudo math code into MathML which can be rendered
into math in the comments column. He has about 230 concepts to process.
Some of these concepts are unclear about what they are.

DC will experiment to see what is feasible.

DG wants to encourage david to think about automation because of the large
number of concepts he has been processing.

DG: Intent drives the speech.

DG wants to have a consistent argument display and speech.

DC: You need a source file to generate the entries.

DC: Some of the speech templates are wrong.

NS: We should do a merge so others can help DC with corrections.

NS wants to remove entries that are already in core.

*ACTION* DC will make a fork with an experimental rendering of the
condensed list.

*ACTION* DC will merge his results so that others can help him with it.

MoS was concerned about variable length argument lists. He was worried
about translation.

DG: We must be able to manage variable argument lists.

*ACTION* NS: Are we using 'n' or '*' to indicate a variable argument list.
DC: I need to check this. Maybe we are using both.

DG: It is ok to have an incomplete implementation of something on the open
list.

NS: The comment column shows rendering of MathML.

DC will do some more experimenting and test the rendering on his fork.

NS: Visual Studio just added MathML support. You can see rendering locally.

   - Intent implementations update

NS is giving a talk on intents in about a month. He wants to be able to say
where the intent implementations are.

NS: DF will give us an update in about two weeks.

*ACTION* MoS and NS will discuss the status of MoS's intent implementation.

MuS told NS that NS should look at what MuS has done.

MuS has done some automatic intent generation of derivatives.

MoS So the implementation will be finished in November this year. And the
old rendering will be finally switched off by the end of 2025.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.1#cp-md-1-2-potentially-closable-intent-issues-after-a-little-discussion->2.
Potentially closable intent issues after a little discussion:

   - Intent for distinguishing uses of spaces #481
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/481>

NS was ok with blank. You can use an intent to say what kind of blank it
is.

*ACTION* DC will close issue 481 with a blank concept added to core.

   - Intent for large operators #482
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/482>

NS: How do we organize the large symbols? Do we put in 22 large symbols
using most of the same descriptions; or can we have a symbol list with 22
symbols with the large symbol property?

NS: The speech templates will be almost identical.

DC and MuS: keep the symbols separate.

MuS: There could be some word changes in the descriptions of these symbols.

NS We could end up with 66 entries instead of really only three. This could
make the list large and more obscure.

DG: I like large lists.

MuS: In the MathML community, these symbols are called large ops or large
operators. In the Unicode community they are called N-ary operators. LaTeX
tends to use the term big.

DC: Do not look at LaTeX for naming guidance.

*ACTION* DC is willing to list the large operators and see what such a list
would look like. This might help the group reach a decision whether to have
a small table of large operators, or list each operator separately with its
own speech template and comments.

   - include standardized currencies in core intents #490
   <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/490>

NS: Communities manage their currencies differently from one another. We
must support these communities.

NS: Is the currency name spoken before or after the numeric value of the
currency? In the U.S., the currency symbol is placed before the numerical
value, but it is spoken after the numeric value, and the euro sign turns
out it can be at the front, the middle, or the end. All these cases need to
be noted.

NS: In the monetary world, they tend not to use the dollar signs and the
euros. They use things like usd (US dollar), eur (euro), and cad for
(Canadian dollar).

NS: In general, if you use a dollar, you say dollar not US dollar because
you know the currency with which you are dealing.

DC: The type of currency would matter when you are dealing with currency
exchanges.

NS: You can always use intent to change a dollar sign into something else.

NS: Do we support all these abbreviations?

NS: The symbols will go into core, and they have Unicode names, and the
names can be spoken. The order of reading the currency symbols will also
have to go into core.

From Moritz Schubotz to everyone: In Excel there is an option in connection
to currencies how to represent negative values. For example, one can write
(123) to express -123

DC: For now, let us add all the currency symbols, and later see what we
need to do.

NS said that DG said that if there is a problem, people can just add an
intent. Mostly people will infer the correct intent.

*ACTION* NS will add a comment to this issue (490) saying that we are going
to add the currency symbols, and speech order could be left to an intent on
a surrounding mrow, and we will not add the currency exchange symbols such
as usd. Do not close issue 490.

MuS: I think it's worth checking "CLDR" (the Unicode Common Locale Data
Repository) because CLDR may already have this material in it. It is part
of internationalization.

*ACTION* MuS: I will check the Unicode Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR)
to see what they do about currency.