Minutes: MathML Full meeting 4 Jan, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Patrick Ion
   - Bruce Miller
   - Cary Supalo
   - Deyan Ginev

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

DG: At our December 21, 2023 meeting, DG announced that arXiv was putting
out papers in MathML. The announcement at:
https://blog.arxiv.org/2023/12/21/accessibility-update-arxiv-now-offers-papers-in-html-format/

DG: said this release was going well. We are at 75% successful conversions
and 97% conversions that produce some HTML.

DG: We are releasing the PERL version. The Rust version will be released
next year.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-482-large-operators-482-a-integral-sum-union-etc-max-5-minutes-issue-opened-at-the-last-minute-so-not-much-discussion->2
Large operators (482) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/482> (integral,
sum, union, etc.): max 5 minutes (issue opened at the last minute, so not
much discussion)

NS: There are about 10 large operators that probably make sense to go into
core (maybe integral, double integral, triple integral, contour integral,
surface integral, volume integral, sum, product, coproduct, union,
intersection). Likely what result is decided for core should be extended to
open for the other large operators (e.g., ⊍). These are all remarkably
similar in structure in that intent potentially goes on msub/munder with
one argument (typically specifying a domain for the "index") and
msubsup/munderover with two arguments ("... from xxx to yyy"). Or they go
on a containing mrow with an additional argument (e.g., "... from xxx to
yyy of zzz"). If they go on one of the scripting elements, then there is no
need for intents for indefinite integration or sums that don't have limits.
If they go on an mrow, then maybe it makes sense to have an intent for them
although Neil felt the speech needs no intent because there is no other
sensible speech for "integral", "sum", etc.

NS: In the December 21, 2023 meeting, Neil felt that listing these all out
both uses up a lot of space (and hence appears complicated) and more
importantly, obscures their similarity making it harder on both generators
and consumers of the spec. His suggestion is to create another list between
the "Core Concept Default Fixity properties" and the "Core Concept
Templates". Others were not enthusiastic about that idea.

DC: His worry is that by having a list, we will end up with a more
compressed list, but every sort of section has its own format.

NS: The difference with the trig ones is that there are diverse ways to
pronounce them; for example, the tangent function can be pronounced diverse
ways.

NS: Although again, I think it could be significantly compressed. I think
there are 24 of those entries.

NS: There aren't diverse ways of speaking "sum" or large operators.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-3-derivatives-first-higher-order-different-notations->3.
Derivatives (first, higher order, different notations):[

473 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/473>] max 10 minutes (lots of
discussion)

BM: We have in the intent the ability for the head to have parenthesis, and
then arguments.

BM: The head can be complex. It doesn't have to be just a simple token like
a parenthesis.

NS: That is correct.

BM: It can be f squared applied to x. And so, you have this level of
abstraction. Which One could take the point of view, that with both
derivatives and big ops, they're always to be thought of as operators that
get applied to something, In which case, which is potentially something
that simplifies the options for derivatives.

NS: This makes it too complicated. Use properties to help it speak
properly. Have a property that says this thing is a derivative.

PI: This is about generating pronounceable material. This is not for the
semantics. It is just for the pronunciation.

PI: It's just for deciding whether you have a terse or verbose reading.

NS: The verbose readings are all kind of the same, and the terse reading
simply follows the notation. You need to be able to produce both verbose
and terse readings.

NS: Once you recognize the material you are reading, you want to increase
your speed until you reach the denser material which might require a lower
reading speed.

From Cary Supalo to Everyone: Neil, I do totally agree. I like to plow
through my material as fast as possible.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-4-a-href-https-w3c-github-io-mathml-docs-intent-core-concepts-core-concept-list-updates-a->4.
Core concept list updates
<https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-concepts/>

(finished the first item so we will start on David F's wish list)
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-i-a-href-https-docs-google-com-spreadsheets-d-1eswou1k5nxbdlpvqapdoa9h-s8lg_qjn8fjh64g9izq-edit-gid-1358098730-deyan-39-s-original-spreadsheet-a->i.
Deyan's original spreadsheet
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EsWou1K5nxBdLPvQapdoA9h-s8lg_qjn8fJH64g9izQ/edit#gid=1358098730>

We have finished this section.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-ii-a-href-https-docs-google-com-spreadsheets-d-1clpaiy9kx5k-67rg6rjsaxerdsb-_iymgzatkqjshvg-edit-gid-0-david-f-39-s-wish-list-a->ii.
David F's wish list
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cLPaIy9kX5K-67RG6rjSAXErDSB-_iYmgZaTKQjShVg/edit#gid=0>

We will consider this section when DF can come to the meeting.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.6.0#cp-md-0-iii-a-href-https-gist-github-com-dginev-825078ae316c32c312436f42061b3d05-deyan-39-s-physics-list-a-and-a-href-https-gist-github-com-dginev-ff7e6e090b79a0389fc2eff2b9961331-chemistry-list-a->iii.
Deyan's Physics list
<https://gist.github.com/dginev/825078ae316c32c312436f42061b3d05> and Chemistry
list <https://gist.github.com/dginev/ff7e6e090b79a0389fc2eff2b9961331>

Things to be added to core.

vertical-ellipsis (Put its Unicode characters in the core list.)

repeating-decimal

From Deyan Ginev to Everyone: intent="_(7, repeating-digits(14))"

From Patrick D F Ion to Everyone: See rep digit in Wikipedia for something
that needs this markup.

list

tends-to

defined-as (NS: defined-as needs to get fixed up.)

directed-line segment

Return to line 78: name (do we use _($piece1,$piece2,...$piecen) or
name($piece1,...)?)

scalar-product (dot-product)

polar-coordinate

tuple

del-operator (used for gradient, diverge and curl)

We reached line 96 which ended this section.

Start with the Misc section.