Minutes: MathML Full meeting 25 Jan, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Murray Sargent
   - David Farmer
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Patrick Ion
   - Bruce Miller
   - Cary Supalo
   - Dennis Müller
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Bert Bos

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - Paul Libbrecht

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

Next week, February 1, 2024, will be a two-hour meeting to discuss concept
naming.

The W3C is having a conference in April. They asked for contributions. NS
did not think our group had anything ready at this time. If anyone is
interested in preparing a talk for the conference, let NS know, and he will
forward the conference announcement. Once there is a conference agenda, NS
will let us know.

DC: I'm making progress with getting PDF readers to read MathML.

After the meeting, NS wrote: The 5th International Workshop on
"Digitization and E-Inclusion in Mathematics and Science 2024" (DEIMS2024)
15-17 February 2024, at Nihon University, Tokyo, Japan There are several
papers that might be of interest to members. Registration for remote
attendance is free, but you are supposed to register. The procedure to
register is here
<https://workshop.sciaccess.net/deims2024/registration.html>. The program
is here <https://workshop.sciaccess.net/deims2024/program.html>. Times are
UTC + 9 hours.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-2-newly-opened-issues->2.
Newly opened issues:
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-486-intent-for-quot-by-quot-as-in-3-4-matrix-486-a->Intent
for "by" (as in 3×4 matrix) (#486)
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/486>
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0--a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-487-non-math-intents-487-a->Non-math
intents (#487) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/487>

DF Came up with the physics related terms of Center-of-mass-of and
antiparticle-of to go into the Non-math intents list in issue 487. We will
revisit this list and see which of these Non-math terms should be concepts.

NS has added the categories of physics, chemistry, and biology. He suggests
that people might want to add other categories.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-482-large-operators-482-a-integral-sum-union-etc-max-5-minutes>3
Large operators (482) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/482> (integral,
sum, union, etc.): max 5 minutes

NS: Any new ideas? These symbols are not ambiguous, so naming them is not a
big deal, but we probably need to list them.

MuS agreed that we should list them.

NS: We do have to account whether they have one or two variables, such as
integrating over a domain, or over a range.

DF: There also might be operators that people are not familiar with such as
a plus with a circle around it which could stand for a direct sum.

NS: There could be a large operator for that.

DF: You might not want to pronounce it as a plus with a circle around it.

NS: Did not think that plus with a circle around it is in core.

MuS: There are at least nine large integral signs. There are many large
operators.

NS: How do we name them? The large operators all follow the same pattern.
They could be in a list and not separate concepts.

MuS: For example, ∫_-∞^∞ 𝑒^-𝑥² ⅆ𝑥=√𝜋 gets the intents

We had a discussion on MathML properties that get inherited upwards such as
integration limits.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-4-a-href-https-w3c-github-io-mathml-docs-intent-core-concepts-core-concept-list-updates-a->4.
Core concept list updates
<https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-concepts/>
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-i-a-href-https-docs-google-com-spreadsheets-d-1eswou1k5nxbdlpvqapdoa9h-s8lg_qjn8fjh64g9izq-edit-gid-1358098730-deyan-39-s-original-spreadsheet-a->i.
Deyan's original spreadsheet
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EsWou1K5nxBdLPvQapdoA9h-s8lg_qjn8fJH64g9izQ/edit#gid=1358098730>

(done)
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-ii-a-href-https-docs-google-com-spreadsheets-d-1clpaiy9kx5k-67rg6rjsaxerdsb-_iymgzatkqjshvg-edit-gid-0-david-f-39-s-wish-list-a->ii.
David F's wish list
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cLPaIy9kX5K-67RG6rjSAXErDSB-_iYmgZaTKQjShVg/edit#gid=0>

(done)
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.7.0-rc1#cp-md-0-iii-a-href-https-gist-github-com-dginev-825078ae316c32c312436f42061b3d05-deyan-39-s-physics-list-a-and-a-href-https-gist-github-com-dginev-ff7e6e090b79a0389fc2eff2b9961331-chemistry-list-a-and>iii.
Deyan's Physics list
<https://gist.github.com/dginev/825078ae316c32c312436f42061b3d05> and Chemistry
list <https://gist.github.com/dginev/ff7e6e090b79a0389fc2eff2b9961331> and

Biology List
<https://gist.github.com/dginev/d6367f53cb7b1fbed8abfa6bddd4f2c0> (finished
first part of physics list) We began in the Misc section with separators
which we do not need to add.

We next considered the arrows. some uses of ↔ and → which had unclear
terminology, used in physics relationships ◦ would have been equilibrium
and yields in chemistry ◦ or potentially if-and-only-if and maps-to in
mathematics

*ACTION:** Add the arrows to the Non-math list.

We did not make a concept name for the arrows because we do not know what
they mean.

NS: suggested an equilibrium concept which would work for both physics and
chemistry.

PI: Arrows show a transition from one state to another state.

MuS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feynman_diagram shows arrows used in
Feynman diagrams. The electron–positron annihilation interaction: e+ + e− →
2γ

NS: We have not decided to add anything on units yet.

NS: wants to group all the units discussion into one call.

Consider chemistry: atomic-mass and isotopes. CS says they are core.

*ACTION* atomic-mass and isotopes go into the Non-math list (issue 487).

CS: wants to add electron and positron to the Non-math list. The symbols
are: electron e to the minus one and positron e to the plus one.

Next we considered properties.

DG had forgotten why he included quotient as a property. We will come back
to it.

There was a discussion on how to write multi-scripts for chemical equations.

NS: Multi-scripts is the right way to do chemistry. Many people use
subscripts and superscripts and just don't worry about aligning things.

NS: discussed scripting as a property.

NS to CS: Did the chemical group come up with a list of symbols that could
be used in a chemical formula?

*ACTION:* Cary will see if the chemical group has created a grammar for
chemical equations. Carry is looking for symbols that can be used in
chemical equations and chemical formulas. We will create an issue where CS
can put the chemistry grammar.

We discussed having " :system-of-equations" as a property.

If you have the equation: ax squared + bx + c = 0, it can be shown as the
matrix row "A b c 0". A matrix of such rows can be treated as a system of
equations and processed as a matrix.

The :system-of-equations property could help you process the matrix
correctly.

*ACTION* For DC: Decide whether matrix or systems of equations covers the
way that that would be spoken; and, if not, propose a different name.

DG: Oh, I'm happy to close this work out, we don't need a new entry. I just
wanted to raise awareness that this exists as a notation to check whether
we thought about it.

NS: It sounds like it's covered under matrix as the way you would probably
speak it.

NS: did we add a grouping concept?

NS: Yes, we have fence group.

NS: Is charge a property or concept?

NS: Charge is a property.

DG: A positive charge of +q does not need to be in core.

From Patrick D F Ion to Everyone: That was The Green Book, Quantities,
Units, and Symbols in Physical Chemistry by the International Union of Pure
and Applied Chemistry

NS: We're going to skip charge and if it shows up, either give it to the
literal intent or will get spoken as plus Q.

matrix is a property telling how you read it.

From Deyan Ginev to Everyone: the cycle notation for permutations allows
multiple parenthetical groups:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation#Cycle_notation

NS could not find the permutation concept. The permutation cycle concept is
missing.

The PR did not work.

*ACTION:* for NS: The permutation-cycle entry is missing.

Permutation may be a list of cycles. A permutation cycle can take any
number of arguments.

NS: two row version of permutation and the cycle form of permutations

**ACTION:* create an issue for two-row permutation and a group of
permutation cycles.

NS: Do we need to add anything for permutation or for groups of permutation
cycles, like something that's just called permutation that's takes children
that are permutation cycles?

DG: So, the official cycle notation admits multiple parenthetical blocks.
At least it's considered to be a single cycle. Well, it's a single piece of
notation in the This is the way I see it documented.

NS: We have the issue of what do we do with sequence of cycles.

NS: Do we need another name, another thing called permutation which is a
group of cycles?

DG: Can we not use permutation cycle?

NS: Should we put permutation into an issue and resolve it there?

NS: There's the 2-row version of permutations where the top row maps to the
bottom row, and then there's the cycle You map left to right and wrap
around. And they're different.

NS: And I don't think we support the second one yet, which is probably a
mistake. And I do not think that we support multiple cycles.

*ACTION:* NS: So put down an issue about permutations that talks about
these 2 and maybe there's an effective way to unify all these things.

Finished DG's physics list.

Open DG's chemistry list.

We have a cancel property. DC: Is the cancel property on the thing that is
being canceled, or the thing that is doing the canceling.

NS: The thing that's doing it so typically an Menclose I would put a cancel
property on it.

We are putting row 17 aside: Row 17 unknown (???)

Consider row 24 "embellished-name"

NS: add a concept of embellished-name

NS: There is always exactly 2 Things: there's the thing being embellished
and there's the name that's given to it and that tends to mean to make it
more of a concept name than a property because you can point to the 2
things; whereas, a property, you know, the AT needs to sort of figure stuff
out and Do something. So, I'm thinking it's a concept name.

Add row 28: obtained-from? (←, inverse to "maps-to")

NS: If we do not like the name, we can change it later.

done with DG's chemistry list.