Minutes: MathML Full meeting 12 Dec, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Deyan Ginev
   - Bruce Miller
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Murray Sargent
   - Bert Bos
   - Stella Vouthsina

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - David Carlisle
   - Patrick Ion

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

Our last meeting of the year will occur on Thursday, December 19, 2024.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-a->2.
#181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of
(maligngroup/) and (malignmark/) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

*ACTION* MuS will try to shorten the descriptions of maligngroup and
malignmark. He needs to find references to the alternating ampersand method.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-449-449-intent-properties-ordering-amp-references-a->3.
#449: Intent Properties: ordering & references
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449>

(lots of new discussion)

*ACTION* NS: I think we have agreement on what should happen. We need to
generate language to describe our agreement.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-4-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-433-433-comment-include-or-not-a-sample-set-of-default-conversion-from-plain-mathml-to-mathml-with-intent-a->4.
#433 (comment) include (or not) a sample-set of default conversion from
plain-MathML to MathML-with-intent
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/433>

(this is a shortened version of this doc
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-docs/blob/main/minimal-intent-core.md>)

*ACTION* NS wants people to comment on his literal (formerly called
structure) list shown by expanding the details button. Then NS wants to
consider the common category of defaults.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

Our last meeting of the year will occur on Thursday, December 19, 2024.

Stella Vouthsina (SV), from Google, has joined our group.

We introduced ourselves to Stella.

PL: Stella knows Greek and Spanish.

NS: MathCAT works in Spanish.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-1-2-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-mathml-4-extensions-for-alignment-and-possible-deprecation-of-maligngroup-and-malignmark-a->2.
#181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of
(maligngroup/) and (malignmark/) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

(updates?)

MuS was going to rewrite this section. He wanted to describe how it worked
in the Microsoft applications. He could not find references, to the use of
the alternating ampersand in the LaTeX community, that he needed. He did
find references to aligning equal signs by this method, and this is the
most trivial case.

DG came up with the idea of aligning columns by using padding.

MuS knows that this alignment application is aimed at browsers and not
Microsoft applications.

NS to MuS: So, are you able to take advantage of intense properties on
tables so that essentially the columns go away when it's read by the screen
reader?

MuS: Well, in my speech engine, it is not doing this correctly. It reads
equation arrays without saying where the align marks are. I'm working on
that.

*ACTION* MuS will try to shorten the descriptions of maligngroup and
malignmark. He needs to find references to the alternating ampersand method.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-0-3-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-449-449-intent-properties-ordering-amp-references-a-lots-of-new-discussion->3.
#449: Intent Properties: ordering & references
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/449> (lots of new discussion)

NS: Last week we decided that the last property on the list should take
priority.

NS: There was the issue of the multiple conflicting properties, and we did
agree last time. The last one wins.

NS: When you have conflicting properties, does the one on inside win or the
one on the outside win? Clearly the one on the outside is going to win if
it wipes out the inner ones.

NS: There's this issue where you have a reference that essentially brings
the reference back up to the top level.

DG: So, if we have a clear order and having the last one win, that's where
the last meeting ended.

DG: It gets a bit more confusing with the up and down axis. So, if a
reference has a property we need to dereference. And the question is, what
is the algorithm to dereference? If there are other properties adjacent to
the dereferenced property, does the dereference property override the other
adjacent properties?

DG: The outer property overwrites the inner properties.

NS: There is another issue that when you convert a property to speech and
bring it up, do you just have a symbol, or do you have the concept name.

BM: If you have a minus sign, if you say unary minus or negative is decided
by the AT. It is a reader preference and not fundamental.

NS: If you have vertical bars, do you have a determinant or cardinality?
This is determined by intent. If the author wants the vertical bars to be
disambiguated, they are going to have to give a concept somewhere.

NS If we do the reference and the reference does not have an intent on it,
then whatever happens happens.

DG: Intent is a partial annotation attribute over presentation MathML trees
Which means many of the nodes may not have it.

DG: We need to have both situations addressed where nodes may or may not
have the intent.

DG: If you want the entire reference resolution to be inside the spec of
the intent attribute, every node that has an arg attribute has to have an
intent attribute that is kind of self-sufficient.

BM: Most of the discussion is with the assumption that when you have a
reference, mostly what you do is find the intent that's on the referred-to
node. Pull it up and substitute it in.

DG: You take the reference up and you merge down all properties associated
with it at the point of referencing. You take the prefix property, and you
merge it down at the nodes which contains the arg. We have to decide if you
merge it at the front or the back position. I suspect we've agreed it's the
back position, and then you can instantiate that node recursively as
necessary.

NS: We need to figure out some language to make it clear that's the intent
of how intent works.

BM: A pure reference doesn't have any properties or arguments. So, if you
have an intent where there's a reference that does have properties and
arguments, you could remove those properties and arguments and append them
to the reference node, and then the intent at the upper levels has the
reference.

*ACTION* NS: I think we have agreement on what should happen. We need to
generate language to describe our agreement.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.12.0-0#cp-md-1-4-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-433-433-comment-include-or-not-a-sample-set-of-default-conversion-from-plain-mathml-to-mathml-with-intent-a->4.
#433 (comment) include (or not) a sample-set of default conversion from
plain-MathML to MathML-with-intent
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/433>

(this is a shortened version of this doc
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-docs/blob/main/minimal-intent-core.md>)

NS: This issue considers the situation when converting from plain MathML to
MathML with intent. Ns believes there should be fallbacks, essentially
having something predefined. There are three possibilities that he outlined
for a property. One is what we originally called structure, but now call
literal. Another is what he called common, and the last one was called
legacy.

NS: So, the only thing we've agreed on so far is to have something called
literal, And so we need to have some notion of what literal does.

NS: By expanding the "details" button, NS reviewed the "details" of the
items he covered as literals. He invited individuals to make comments on
these items.

Items that promoted discussion were:

mfrac which could be a fraction or something else like the binomial
coefficient. You could say argument one over argument two.

MuS and DG: You could use character navigation and just describe what is
there.

DG: To give an example to Murray, MFRAC with line thickness equals zero is
very often used for a binomial coefficient with the coefficients above each
other. So that's not a fraction and it's not a denominator.

You would need to indicate when a term begins and ends; that is, you must
indicate when a numerator or denominator begins and ends.

BM: Literal is exactly for the case where there is no intent.

NS: Menclose should indicate the notation attributes along with the
contents. so, you could say a box around such and such or a diagonal strike
over the following contents.

NS: You would never say Msup as a power. It would just be spoken as a
superscript, but I think that you want to have exceptions for pseudo script
characters like a prime or a degree sign.

*ACTION* NS wants people to comment on his literal (formerly called
structure) list shown by expanding the details button. Then NS wants to
consider the common category of defaults.

DG: When in doubt, you should just read what is there and not interpret it,
for there is always another special case.

Received on Wednesday, 18 December 2024 22:20:50 UTC