Minutes: MathML Full Meeting: 22 Aug, 2024

Decide about deprecating mgroupalign/malignmark: #181
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>. [decision also relates to #180
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>].

MuS needs another week to complete his work on these issues. He is
investigating using tables to line up his equations.

*ACTION:* Concerning muS's application: NS: We could have a meeting focused
on workflows.

issue 209: Use fence/separator operator properties in MathML Core?
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/209>

DC commented: Fence and separator attributes have been dropped from full in
chapter 3 by PR #500 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/500>. We will keep
this issue open a little longer because it needs Updates to the Changes
appendix, and Move the attributes to the legacy schema.

DC will move fence and separator to legacy schema w3c/mathml-schema#2
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-schema/pull/2>.

DC: Fence and separator attributes are not deprecated, they are gone.

Spec should specify what char to use for accents/lines #247
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/247>.

*CONSENSUS:* DC: Call on 22-08-2024 consensus is to recommend non combining
character (e.g., U+02C6) although current chrome implementation only makes
U+0302 stretchy.

Make the sample presentation of Strict Content use intent: issue 284
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/284>

*CONSENSUS:* Allow intent to be used where reasonable but not for every
single example.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-2#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-2#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

NS: We will not have a core meeting this Monday, August 26, 2024.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-2#cp-md-0-2-decide-about-deprecating-mgroupalign-malignmark-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-181-181-a-decision-also-relates-to-a-href-https-github-com-w3c-mathml-issues-180-180-a->2.
Decide about deprecating mgroupalign/malignmark: #181
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>. [decision also relates to #180
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>].

MuS needs another week to complete his work on these issues. He is
investigating using tables to line up his equations.

PL: MuS: You were saying that you were investigating dictation.

PL: I think, before you start investigating dictation using intents, I
believe we should investigate refining intents to get the best way to say
something. Also, we should refine the correction workflow.

MuS has math speech and math dictation. His application implements math
speech.

PL: Every author will want a specific set of specializations. This will
mean a lot of manually inserted intents.

MuS: Nothing will happen unless we have an easy way to get intents into
documents.

NS: You could have subject specific palettes. If you ask for a times sign,
the application could show you several kinds of time signs, and you could
pick the one you needed.

*ACTION:* Concerning muS's application: NS: We could have a meeting focused
on workflows.

DC demonstrated his system for entering math in LaTex and receiving output
as a tagged PDF document containing equations in MathML.

DC: Acrobat does not support PDF2.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-2#cp-md-0-3-taking-stock-of-where-we-are-at-continued-let-39-s-go-through-more-issues-since-we-had-good-success-last-week-addressing-closing-several-issues->3.
Taking stock of where we are at (continued) -- let's go through more issues
since we had good success last week addressing/closing several issues:
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1-2#cp-md-0-57-open-issues>57
open issues

   - 16 with intent label
   - 9 with need spec update label
   - 20 with MathML label
   - Note: some have multiple labels

Let us consider the issues that have the need spec update label.

issue 209: Use fence/separator operator properties in MathML Core?
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/209>

DC: We do not think that these properties do anything. They are not used.

DC commented: Fence and separator attributes have been dropped from full in
chapter 3 by PR #500 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/pull/500>. We will keep
this issue open a little longer because it needs Updates to the Changes
appendix, and Move the attributes to the legacy schema.

DC will move fence and separator to legacy schema w3c/mathml-schema#2
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml-schema/pull/2>.

DC: Fence and separator attributes are not deprecated, they are gone.

Spec should specify what char to use for accents/lines #247
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/247>.

NS commented: TeX has a number of commands that correspond to mover/munder
accents in MathML. The spec does not say what characters to use for those
accents. In some cases, there are ASCII characters that could be used but
also non-ASCII ones that are similar. Many of these characters should be
stretchy when used with mover/munder. At a minimum, the spec should say
which (or all) of the following should be used for (stretchable) accents
(some options listed) so that renderers and generators of MathML agree on
what character(s) to use:

   - \hat -- '^', U+0302, U+02C6
   - \check -- 'v', U+0306, U+02D8
   - \tilde -- '~', U+0303, U+223C, U+02DC
   - \acute -- U+0027, U+00B4, U+02CA, U+0301, U+02B9, U+2032
   - \grave -- U+0060, U+02BC, U+02CB, U+0300
   - \dot -- '.', U+00B7, U+02D9, U+0307, and potentially others like U+2E33
   - \ddot -- '..', U+00A8, U+0308
   - \breve -- U+02D8, U+0306
   - \bar -- '_', '-', U+00AF, U+02C9, U+0304, U+0305, U+0332, U+FF3F
   - vec -- U+20D7, U+2192, U+27F6

Note: based on experience with MathPlayer, many of these alternatives were
encountered "in the wild" so it is important that Core specifies these
(MathML 3 should have) as people are having to guess what character to use.

   - \overline -- should be same as \bar\
   - \underline -- same as \bar?

NS: Fred did not want this in the spec.

NS should generate a codepen to see what happens.

NS: The reference to 7.4 should go to 8.4.

DC wrote: *CONSENSUS:* Call on 22-08-2024 consensus is to recommend non
combining character (e.g., U+02C6) although current chrome implementation
only makes U+0302 stretchy.

Make the sample presentation of Strict Content use intent: issue 284
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/284>

NS commented: There are currently "sample" renderings. Let's make this use
intent.

DC: Intent may be used in some of the sample presentation examples, but we
do not have the resources to commit to regenerating every example.

*CONCLUSION:* Allow intent to be used where reasonable but not for every
single example.