Minutes: MathML Full Meeting: 15 Aug, 2024

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - David Carlisle
   - Murray Sargent
   - Bruce Miller
   - Patrick Ion

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-action-items>Action
Items

issue 181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of and
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

*ACTION:* NS added this comment to issue 181: The group tentatively agreed
that these are no longer needed: they aren't implemented in browsers and
are rarely generated. The main use is to get alignment right at the
character level (e.g., decimal alignment). DC pointed out that there is a
Unicode space character (U+2007) that is meant to be the width of a digit
and that this can be used as padding to get decimal alignment to work. NS
pointed out that with intent table properties, the accessibility problem of
splitting equations across columns goes away. This section (which is
somewhat simplified from MathML 3) still is quite large, so removing this
would be a good simplification to the spec and help align it with it. MuS
currently uses malignmark in his UnicodeMath implementation. He will
investigate whether this is really needed. If not, then we can remove these
from the spec.

issue 180: "decimalpoint" value definition
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>

*ACTION:* NS wrote: At the meeting today, we agreed that if malignmark,
etc., goes away (issue 181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>, then
we can remove decimal alignment from mystyle. The only remaining decimal
alignment is an attribute value of stackalign in elementary math, and that
wouldn't be part of mstyle. Hence... Status: awaiting resolution of #181.

issue 209: Use fence/separator operator properties in MathML Core?
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/209>

*ACTION:* DC will remove the fence/separator operator properties from the
full spec, then DC will close issue 209.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

DC: A release of LaTeX-dev earlier today will reach TeX installations in
the next day or so. it incorporates luamml TeX to MathML conversion so a
range of documents will get automatically associated files embedded in the
PDF with TeX source and MathML conversion of each math fragment.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-2-taking-stock-of-where-we-are-at-continued-let-39-s-go-through-more-issues-since-we-had-good-success-last-week-addressing-closing-several-issues->2.
Taking stock of where we are at (continued) -- let's go through more issues
since we had good success last week addressing/closing several issues.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.6.1#cp-md-0-57-open-issues>57
open issues

   - 16 with intent label
   - 9 with need spec update label
   - 20 with MathML label
   - Note: some have multiple labels

Let us consider the issues that have the need spec update label.

issue 181: MathML 4 extensions for alignment and possible deprecation of and
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>

MuS: I do not see how you can make nicely aligned equations without these
primitives.

NS: The way everybody does it in TeX is to use a table with various columns.

NS: With intent, you can get the equation read as a single line like an
mrow.

NS: Almost no one uses and .

NS: It would be a great idea to say: This is a removal notice. We're just
taking this out because of a minimal adoption.

NS: The alternative is to have a mtable with intents on it for
accessibility.

NS: If we do this, then a big section of the spec goes away. It's been an
implementation challenge. It's not implemented in any of the browsers. It's
not in core. I can't see it going into core.

*ACTION:* NS added this comment to issue 181: The group tentatively agreed
that these are no longer needed: they aren't implemented in browsers and
are rarely generated. The main use is to get alignment right at the
character level (e.g., decimal alignment). DC pointed out that there is a
Unicode space character (U+2007) that is meant to be the width of a digit
and that this can be used as padding to get decimal alignment to work. I
pointed out that with intent table properties, the accessibility problem of
splitting equations across columns goes away. This section (which is
somewhat simplified from MathML 3) still is quite large, so removing this
would be a good simplification to the spec and help align it with it. MuS
currently uses malignmark in his UnicodeMath implementation. He will
investigate whether this is really needed. If not, then we can remove these
from the spec.

issue 180: "decimalpoint" value definition
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/180>

In the issue, NS wrote: The MathML 3 spec says 'mstyle' defines a
decimalpoint value (typically '.' or ',') that is used in 'maligngroup' and
elementary math for decimal alignment. We have dropped it from core. We
have not made any decisions about mstyle in full, and perhaps decimalpoint
can remain in it. However, I'm dubious about keeping maligngroup and
malignmark because AFAIK, only MathPlayer implemented those, and no one
uses it (it's way too complicated. That leaves the only use being
elementary math and it is probably simpler (both in use and implementation)
to add a decimalpoint attribute to mstack than to support it in mstyle. In
writing this, I had thought that mtable supported decimal point as part of
column alignment, but to my surprise it is only supported in 'maligngroup'.
I don't remember why that was omitted. It is also not supported in CSS
table alignment. It was maybe in HTML 4 but pulled from HTML 5…

NS: If we get rid of issue 181, then issue 180 mostly goes away.

NS: Well, it doesn't quite go away. It's used for elementary math.

BM: Well, except that's not in core either.

NS: Elementary math has to be added at some point.

NS: We will have an elementary math discussion later.

*ACTION:* NS wrote: At the meeting today, we agreed that if malignmark,
etc., goes away (issue 181 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/181>, then
we can remove decimal alignment from mystyle. The only remaining decimal
alignment is an attribute value of stackalign in elementary math, and that
wouldn't be part of mstyle. Hence... Status: awaiting resolution of #181.

issue 209: Use fence/separator operator properties in MathML Core?
<https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/209>

DC: We do not think that these properties do anything. They are not used.

*ACTION:* DC will remove the fence/separator operator properties from the
full spec, then DC will close issue 209.