- From: Neil Soiffer <soiffer@alum.mit.edu>
- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2024 16:13:17 -0700
- To: "www-math@w3.org" <www-math@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAESRWkAmS0097oCPQ_ZNKyNGW0EL-qEvVcW+EL9__b8Uo7qGVA@mail.gmail.com>
Attendees: - Neil Soiffer - Louis Maher - Dennis Müller - David Carlisle - Deyan Ginev - Murray Sargent - Bruce Miller - Paul Libbrecht - Bert Bos <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-regrets> Regrets - Patrick Ion - Moritz Schubotz <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-action-items>Action Items - *ACTION* NS: will add the Dyne (f) and erg (E) to issue 475 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/475>. - *ACTION* DC will reach out to Chinese TeX groups and ask them about units used in Asian languages. Do they see these symbols in publications? From Deyan Ginev to Everyone: Chinese units: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_units_of_measurement - *ACTION* NS will reach out to his Chinese MathCAT contact about units. - *ACTION* DC will check Fred's changes in issue 103: percentage of minsize/maxsize <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/103>. - *ACTION* DC should reply that neither TeX nor Word support asymmetric stretching. DC will make a comment about this in this PR. This comment will need updating due to LuaTeX and Word supporting stretching. - *ACTION* DC will open an issue on stretchiness. - *ACTION* NS: Mention that it's not changed, and that the 90% would be a fine way to implement it. This is for issue 491) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/491> - Add a :structure (or :literal) property? (#492) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/492> Continue this discussion. - Clarify property use as descriptions(#493) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/493> continue this discussion. <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-agenda> Agenda <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1. Announcements/Updates/Progress reports NS asked for a progress report on the horizontal review. The group asked the reviewers to finish by the end of April 2024. PL: There was an access internationalization review for core around two weeks ago. BB: There are a few issues opened by the internationalization group. I hope that some of our WG members can answer those questions. NS: have any of the other four groups done anything about the horizontal review? BB: I do not know. NS: The APA groups meets at 7 AM next week. I will try to make that meeting to urge them to finish. DC: Is there any chance to resolve the link issue? NS: The core group will meet on April 29. NS will ping BK to try to resolve this issue. DC: This issue concerns adding links to core: adding either an anchor (a) attribute or an href on an mrow. DC: If we could get an agreement, it would be implemented fairly quickly because it already works in various places. <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-2-quick-review-of-action-items-from-the-last-two-weeks-some-were-carried-forward->2. Quick review of action items from the last two weeks (some were carried forward): - *ACTION* MuS will add CGS (Centimeter, gram, second) units to the units list. Please indicate which CGS units are not already on the list. MuS put these units into the list. CGS units (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centimetre%E2%80%93gram%E2%80%93second_system_of_units ) force: dyne (10⁻⁵ newton) pressure: barye (10⁻¹ pascal) energy: erg (10⁻⁷ joule) power: erg per second (10⁻⁷ watt) wavenumber: kayser or cm⁻¹ charge: franklin (Fr) or statcoulomb (statC) or esu charge = 1 √(dyne)-cm current: 1 Fr/s = 1 statampere (statA) = 1 esu current = 1 √(dyne)-cm/s emu unit of current: biot (Bi) or abampere = 1 √(dyne) emu unit of charge: 1 Bi-s = 1 abcoulomb = 1 emu charge = 1 √(dyne)-s resistance: statΩ capacitance: statF inductance: statH MuS: We should include the dyne and erg, but maybe not all the other units. NS: cgs is becoming less popular. *ACTION* NS: will add the Dyne (f) and erg (E) to issue 475 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/475>. - *ACTION* DC will reach out to Chinese TeX groups and ask them about units used in Asian languages. Do they see these symbols in publications? From Deyan Ginev to Everyone: Chinese units: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_units_of_measurement DC: No progress. NS: We do not know what the Chinese really do. Need someone with experience. - *ACTION* NS will reach out to his Chinese MathCAT contact about units. - *ACTION* DC will check Fred's changes in issue 103: percentage of minsize/maxsize <https://github.com/w3c/mathml-core/issues/103>. DC: The issue has been updated. DC: The issue is still open. - *ACTION* DC should reply that neither TeX nor Word support asymmetric stretching. DC will make a comment about this in this PR. DC: LuaTeX supports asymmetric stretching. It supports separate keywords for height and depth. MuS: Word has stretching options for brackets. You can have the brackets fit what is inside them. Context-menu options can make brackets symmetric with respect to the baseline. "Stretch brackets" option) or "Match Brackets to Argument Height". The latter option looks better for an expression like (a/b/c/d/e) when built up since it doesn't put a lot of white space below the nested fractions. DC: Still working on it. - *ACTION* DC will open an issue on stretchiness. DG: We do not know which characters are stretchy or not stretchy. [From the April 11 minutes: DC: Should Unicode and MathML agree on stretchiness? Someone should check this. (http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr25/tr25-15.pdf) MuS: Word does not stretch the underscore. DG: I just wanted to make a note about what is stretchy. The current support for web browsers should have a discussion on the stretchy attribute. That page could be extended with a couple of math fonts and examples. ] DC: Characters that are delimiters are expected to be stretchy. Continued for next week. - *ACTION* NS will open an issue on larger parens and Matching requested fixed sizes. He will open this on the MathML core list. done. <https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=2024.3.0-15#cp-md-0-3-quick-review-of-recent-issues>3. Quick review of recent issues - How to represent brackets equivalent to \big( and friends)(issue 491) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/491> NS reviewed the comments in the issue. NS: There was a discussion about following the CSS properties. There was a suggestion to write the exact size value instead of filling out both the minsize and maxsize values. DG wrote: On a purely MathML ergonomics side, I suspect the missed opportunity is using a single attribute as a shorthand for setting minsize and maxsize to the same value. You can see something similar in CSS, which has min-height and max-height, but you also have a standalone height property (and similarly for width), which avoids some pain. DG: This connects to the stretch algorithm which could cover what it stretches. Gecko will scale to the exact value that is prescribed. DG issue 238 DC: Gecko is doing what TeX does. DC: Basically, Geckos doing what TeX does. DG: Fred asked that the algorithm be as simple as possible. NS: The simplification would be just to lock in the values of 10% and 5 points. DG: It is not used anywhere in the base files of LaTex. - *ACTION* NS: Mention that it's not changed, and that the 90% would be a fine way to implement it. This is for issue 491) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/491> - Add a :structure (or :literal) property (#492) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/492>. NS: We have a structure property to do literal speech. NS: It is a little more elegant to have the property to guide speech than to use literals to control speech. NS: Is structure a good name for this? This is discussed in issue 492 <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/492>. NS: The structure property would have defined ways of speaking things that would be pretty literal, but there's some exceptions like prime and star such that F would be F prime and F star because that is the common default way to do things. NS: The question came up is structure a good name for this. DG had pointed out that structure had a mathematical meaning. NS: some other names came up like verbatim and function; however, people objected to them because, for one thing, function is already used. NS: Let the group know, in issue 492, if structure is a good name for this idea, or if you believe that this is not a good idea. - Clarify property use as descriptions(#493) <https://github.com/w3c/mathml/issues/493> NS said that issue 493 is about what properties are. DG showed an example where various frequencies were shown in different colors. Basically, color was used to give the properties of the equation. The colors help make the equation more meaningful. LM: Screen readers will not tell you what the underlying colors are unless you ask it on a character-by-character basis. The screen reader might be able to be set to tell you about color changes, but that is not the default configuration. You would have to know that color is important for a particular document before you tried to detect color. NS said that DG has a clever way to annotate an equation using intent properties. NS: You can mouse over parts of the equation and get more information out of the terms. NS said that one of the earlier things that DG had suggested is that properties could be used to give more information about the parameters in an equation: e.g. this is an integer, this is a real value, this is a real Positive number. NS suggested that you could use literals, which would begin with underscores, to give this information. DG referred to BM's comment in issue 493: "BM: I probably am, or at least we should buy into whatever mechanism the web platform recommends for descriptions (which presumably is aria). I suspect we'll be more successful by focusing intent on generating the basic text/speech equivalent, rather than trying to cover every possible accessibility related facet. The latter runs the risk of complicating and confusing the use of intent and clashing with other aspects of the platform (as with CSS).". DG: Earlier we merged hints with "Isa" into properties. DG: So, to me, that is Isa the way it was originally designed? And then the question is, are the properties only for hints? DC: Properties are still used for typing. Properties are not just hints. DC: We do not want to use a property just to squeeze in a descriptive sentence. It s legal, but we should not advertise it. DC: Firefox allows popups, but Chrome does not. Popups are not advertised to work anywhere. DC: In intent, The name of a property is not supposed to be its value. PL: We do not know how people are going to use intent. We should leave the door open for flexibility like "isa". DC: Use a concept instead of a property. DC referred to one of DG's examples DC said this should have been a concept and not a property. MuS would prefer using titles to get this descriptive effect. DC: Titles are not specified as working in core, and they do not work in Chrome. They work as a legacy in Firefox. DG: ARIA has this feature and DG wants to bring it into intent. DC: Why not just use ARIA. DG: The ARIA people suggested we not use ARIA but to reinvent everything in house. DG said we could use our attributes for descriptions. DG: That might cause a big change because we may have to start advising that people use ARIA and not intent. PL: Putting a description in the title can also be thought of as an abuse of its purpose. DC: There is no disagreement because the long descriptions in properties are legal; therefore we do not have to change the spec. Continue next week.
Received on Wednesday, 24 April 2024 23:13:37 UTC