Minutes: MathML Full meeting 13 July, 2023

 Attendees:

   - Neil Soiffer
   - Louis Maher
   - Sam Dooley
   - Bruce Miller
   - Moritz Schubotz
   - Steve Noble
   - Murray Sargent

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.3.0-rc1#cp-md-0-regrets>
Regrets

   - David Carlisle
   - Paul Libbrecht
   - Cary Supalo

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.3.0-rc1#cp-md-0-agenda>
Agenda
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.3.0-rc1#cp-md-0-1-announcements-updates-progress-reports>1.
Announcements/Updates/Progress reports

TPAC *(11–15 Sept) reg is now open:
https://www.w3.org/2023/09/TPAC/Overview.html. Fee waivers are available,
no questions asked. fees go up after July 15

NS did some work on the charter.

LM: The permissions on our new Zoom link did not allow a transcript to be
made. LM has written to Bert to reconfigure the meeting settings. This
week's minutes will be brief.
<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.3.0-rc1#cp-md-0-2-core-list>2.
Core list

   1. Work on growing the list for core concepts/functions
   <https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-concepts/> and core
   properties <https://w3c.github.io/mathml-docs/intent-core-properties/>

<https://sandbox.cryptpad.info/code/inner.html?ver=5.3.0-rc1#cp-md-0-in-this-meeting-39-s-announcement-ns-wrote->In
this meeting's announcement, NS wrote:

At the last meeting, we agreed to some principles such as not listing all
the Unicode chars as part of core, or at least listing them elsewhere.
However, At the end of the meeting, the question of functional reading of
some of the chairs came up (e.g., "union of ..."). So maybe we do need to
list at least some of the Unicode chars if they have a (common) functional
reading with the intent going on an mrow. To be discussed...
------------------------------

NS started adding functions to the core list. We agreed that we should not
put Unicode characters on the list. But many Unicode characters can be put
on an mrow that can be spoken.

NS: Do people agree that union and intersection should go on the core
concept list although they are Unicode characters?

BM: If the operator had prefix or infix then normal mrow rules would go
into effect.

BM: If you had a prefix, you might add "of" to the speech. You would not
add "of" for infix.

NS: would add "of" if it were in a functional form.

NS: You would not say "integral of" if the integral had superscripts and
subscripts.

NS: asked MOS if, in German, you use "of" for square roots, IN English you
would say square root of. MOS said you would not.

MOS: It would be useful to have version numbers for the core list. It would
be good for us to give some thought to how this list would be maintained
and updated.

NS: The list will be kept in GitHub which has versioning.

NS: We want people to put examples of different languages so that we can
see how the list will be used.

NS: AT should be free to speak in other languages using the rules of that
language.

NS Do not assume that AT knows how to process common expressions such as
"csc" or "sin". Just use the common initials and let the core table give
the correct description.

BM: It would be difficult to add so many names. All the trig functions
should be in the list.

NS: If a function is in core, then its translation into other languages
should also be in core.

From Moritz Schubotz to Everyone: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q152415
(there is quite a few languages)

From Moritz Schubotz to Everyone:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seno_(trigonometrADa)

NS: suggested that the limits sign (a tilted arrow) must be included in the
list.

MOS: suggested that we could get a list of things to be added to core from
content MathML.

NS: says there will be around four to five hundred core concepts to be put
in the core list. We need to start writing them down to be able to
understand what we will need to add.

MUS: put in sin cos. The trigonometric function names are defined by the
expression. 'a'? ['sin' | 'cos' | 'tan' | 'sec' | 'csc' | 'cot'] 'h'?

MOS (chat): For CMML it is 4.4.7.1 Common trigonometric functions , , , , ,

NS: If AT does not know about an entry in the core list, then the intent
should be written to speak it correctly.

MOS log and ln may have the opposite meanings in English and German.

NS People will use log and ln depending on the community of people they are
addressing. If the community is considering only common logarithms, then
log will mean log base ten. If they are discussing natural logarithms, then
log will mean ln.

MUS The term LOG (using capital letters), is used for the multivalued log.

NS For the list, should we just use the normal math expression (sin), or
should we spell out its full meaning?

MUS: If you use sin, then it must be in the core concept dictionary.

MOS: We should stay with the standard mathematical definition (sin) that we
usually see on our screens.

NS: You do not want to tie the concept name to the symbols written in math
because you cannot depend on an accurate translation.

SD: The translation has two steps. First we translate from the markup name
to the concept name, then we translate from the concept name to how it is
spoken.

BM Voted for the three-letter terms.

NS: urged everyone to put entries in the core concepts and core properties
tables.

We shall continue this discussion next Thursday.